462 Build - Need some guidance
 

Hey guys, I am in the process of purchasing parts to build my 462. Here is what came with my initial purchase.. Package deal

1970 YH 455 .030 (Block fresh from machine shop)
Standard 4.210 Stroke "N" Crank .010/.010
Kieth Black pistons (KB347.030) Dome 0cc (New in box)
Comp Cams XE268H (CL51-223-4)
5C-8 Cylinder Heads (Super clean but unsure what's been done to them)
Melling high volume oil pump

I'm looking to purchase the remaining items from Butler

Eagle Rods
Bearings, Rings, Gaskets, Push Rods, Rockers
Steel Main Caps (Do I even need these if I don't go over 600hp?)

I also have an opportunity to pick up a set of 6X (96cc) also right out of the machine shop with new valves and springs. Many would say these are definitely better than the 5C heads.

My HP goal is to be somewhere in the mid 500s. Compression should be around 9.4 with the 5C heads and 9.7 with the 6X. Am I on track to reach this goal? Is the cam right for this combo? It will be mated to a M22 and 3:55 rear in a 69 GTO..

Any advice is greatly appreciated. I'm a little stressed and don't want to waste money. Thanks!

There are two main things that will keep you quite far away from your 500 to 550 hp goal.

1) that Cam is too small.

2) both the 5C and the 6X heads only flow enough to allow a 400 , 428 or 455 motor to top out at 450 hp, and even getting that with stock heads is not a walk in the park!

Both of those heads that in stock form top out Intake flow wise at 205 to 212 cfm and you will need the heads to be ported into the 270 cfm range to make 550 hp with a livable street Cam.

No, with your newc lighter rod's and Pistons will not need steel main caps at the 550 hp level if you take the time to polish over all the sharp edges they have but for the Bearing parting lines.

Horrible cam choice right to start with for a 455 build and you'd be lucky to see 400hp with that cam at 9.4 to 9.7 to 1 compression and 6X heads with stock flow specs. Right on the dyno the larger XE284 cam and home ported 7K3 heads made 430hp. I didn't build that engine but watch the dyno shop pulling out all the stops to get the big 455 to make the power they were looking for and it never happened. I've custom tuned several 455's brought to the shop using the XE268 cam and it's cousin the XR276HR cam and they were "turds"...IMHO. At least if compared to similar 455 builds I've done here with similar parts but completely different cams in them.

You can make around 440-450hp with unported factory iron heads moving up to a RAIV size cam. I did a build years ago with #46 heads from a 350 engine without any porting at all and made 440hp with a Crower 60919 cam. My first 455 build back in 2000 made 455.4hp using 6X-4 heads cleaned up enough to flow 232cfm. That engine was featured in Popular Hot Rodding and HPP magazine in 2004 (if memory serves me correctly) and was part of the KRE aluminum "D" port head swap and two part articles that followed (dyno testing followed by a private track rental).......Cliff

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/05...-dyno-results/

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/05...track-results/

Good to see your back around Cliff!

Sent from my SM-G988U1 using Tapatalk

I agree with the above. 550 hp? You have that big engine drinking out of a cocktail straw. The cam is way small and will ping, and you will need ported factory heads or aftermarket heads to get near where you want.

Agree with everyone above. The heads aren't there and the cam is going to give you fits. It'll be a turd, likely ping and run hot.

I have a similar engine to what you are trying to achieve.

+0.030 455
Speed Pro pistons, factory conditioned rods, N crank
as Cast Kauffman D ports, torker ii intake manifold
232/238 112+4 roller
3 tube headers

It runs 104.5 mph through the quarter in 8500 ft air at 3630 race weight. Corrected for sea level, the engine should be in the low 500hp range and probably 570 ft lbs. If you're after a good driving mid 500hp engine, I'd step up to a larger cam and you'll need a decently set of ported stock heads, or go aftermarket.

a set of SD prepped 290cfm Kauffman D ports with their Old Faithful cam and a properly matched intake will likely get you there.

Since you are already planning on Butler supplying parts, talk to them about a set of aluminum heads and camshaft to get you to 550HP..
The 3-4 post above have all given excellent advice.

If the $ 4-5000 cost of a roller cam/ valve train and mild ported aluminum heads is not for you then adjust your goal to 425HP but get a bigger cam.

This is pretty solid IMHO. If the OP is already at their budget limit, I would opt against the steel caps and use those funds for some light cleanup on the 5C heads.

Try to get them to around 230cfm and I'd use the Crower 60919 that Cliff recommends with rhoads lifters. That would still be a wicked fun combination on the street and enough grunt to help out with the trans/rear combination the OP is working with.

I'd prefer an m23z gear set with a 3.08 or 3.23, but now I'm just spending other people's money.

For a great street engine the "Jim Hand " build as above just works well. I had a similar engine years ago and it just flat out worked. Plenty of power for the street would be a great 4 speed engine as well. Build your shortblock well so if you wish to upgrade heads and cam later you are good to go.

Thanks for all the feedback. I really appreciate it. I’m not committed to using the items that came in the package. Most will probably just be sold. I’ll build the bottom end strong enough to handle future upgrades. I’ll probably use the 5C heads for now and perhaps my refund check can go towards a set of Edelbrock heads.

Which type head is preferred D port or Round port? If they’re both flowing the same does it matter?

Are the performance gains of roller valve train worth the added investment? Or is flat tappet sufficient?

Last question.. I have an Edelbrock RPM intake. Should I swap for a Torker?

Thanks again!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

something to consider on the pistons, they are Hypereutectic & i have heard lots of horror stories of broken ring lands if they are not set up exactly right or if any detonation happens. for this type of build i think a good forged piston would be better, talk to butler about their ross or other brand piston that will work with the rods you buy. maybe some others can comment on the pistons, a few years back a lot of people would steer people away from them.

if you are considering aluminum heads, it would be best to just buy them now & save the cost of porting or going through the 5c or buying the 6x heads. 6x & 5c are practically identical in flow so i dont think they are any better, the 6x4 just have smaller chambers for a little higher compression but the 5c8 can easily be milled some to get the same compression.

D ports dont flow as much as the round ports out of the box but they are definitely easier to get headers for that are usually cheaper than O-port headers.

roller cam will make more power than an equal size FT cam & added benefit of less lifter/lobe failures & can use regular oil, but many are still fighting with noise issues from roller lifters, i use the comp S lifters & so far they are pretty quiet, at full heat soak temps they can barely start to sound like a rhoads lifter, doesnt bother me over the 3" exhaust noise though. its ~$1000 for a roller set up so depends on your budget, nothing wrong with a FT cam of the right size as cliff mentioned.

for the intake, the RPM is taller than stock so depends if you have hood clearance to use it, or mess with drop base air cleaners. if running a holley
square bore carb the torker2 is good but for a q-jet a factory (ported) intake or maybe an aluminum holley street dominator or other brand would work.

& definitely dont need steel main caps, factory caps are fine at this power level & street use, even if going roller cam & alum heads the stock caps are OK, but consider upgrading to ARP main studs, i was told by my engine builder & many reputable pontiac gurus that the stock 2 bolt main caps with studs are good for 600hp.

On a street car I would go with D ports simply because of manifold/header availability. The Kauffman and Edelbrock D ports have slightly less CSA which should help low speed torque production on the street over the larger ports in the round port heads.

Honestly though I don't think you can really go wrong with either.

If you're going to stick with your 5C heads right now, I think staying with a flat tappet setup will be fine. What I would do however is while you're having the heads put together, elongate the pushrod holes to accept a 1.6 to 1.65 ratio rocker. Not only will that rocker add valve lift, but the valve action increases, which increases the area under the curve of the tappet, in essence doing the same trick that roller cams get away with.

On the crower 60919 going with a 1.65:1 rocker nets you .517" of lift compared to .470 with a standard 1.5:1 rocker. A head with some light clean up and bowl work should like that bit of added lift.

I'd stick with the Performer RPM, or a stock intake.

If you have headers or RA manifolds, you might want to by heads that match and save buying new ones.

if it is street driven car and you live in an area where it is cold sometimes when you drive, you might want the heat crossover in place to warm up the intake/choke. Edlebrock D port have this.

But most won’t use the heat cross over, only warm weather drive their cars, so aluminum round ports would be my choice if you don’t have the exhaust purchased yet.

If you buy the heads, I think you waste 1/2 the benefits, if you don’t buy the big roller cam and valve train to match.
The heads will flow well to 0.600 lift so getting a cam and valve train to get you there is part of the decision.

If you are buying, there are better manifolds available over the Torker.

A tid bit to generate conversation...

"If you examine the actual lift curve at the valves, a modern quick-lift hydraulic cam, in conjunction with high-ratio rockers and Rhodes Vari-Duration lifters, will approximate the valve-lift curve of a traditional solid roller up to about 0.600 lift."
Ken Crocie

And well noted there, a 'modern' quick lift hyd flat tappet cam.
Over about 0.600 lift, the big nose solid roller is king.

Again for conversation, you could go to Bullet Racing Cams and find a lobe that has the same 231 at .050" duration as the infamous Crower 60919 cam, yet with a high ratio rocker could be at 0.540" valve lift.
And with 21 degrees less seat timing !
.

This is interesting, how much money could you save buying a flat tappet cam, suitable 1.65 rockers and Rhodes lifters.

Now would it make sense if you were planning to upgrade later to a roller cam what would you end up throwing away? Would it be only the cam, lifters, pushrods and valve springs? Would the rockers be reusable,?

yes a conversion to a roller cam would require all the parts you listed to be replaced... rockers can be re-used with any type cam. & you'd need a new distributor gear for the roller cam.

You're going to be money ahead with the HFT setup initially, but if your plan ultimately includes going to a roller, you're always money ahead doing it up front, even if it costs more initially.

The only thing really between the two that won't be a sunk cost is the rockers. With most street hydraulic rollers you'd still want a 1.65:1 rocker to get you up to or slightly over that .6" valve lift. Everything else would have to be changed. Valve springs, pushrods, lifters, cam and depending on your distributor probably the gear as well.

Always cheaper in the end to go after the combination you want, than to throw something together and do it over. That's not always realistic though based on budgets.

But Steve C makes great points here if the budget is a concern, you can help out the HFT cam with the variable ratio lifters and higher ratio rockers that help with valve action at half to 3/4's the price of the roller setup.

All that said, having lived with a roller for 7 years now, my only complaint is the damn noise. I've not had any reliability issues at all. Every time I tear into the engine, everything looks great. I'd return to a roller again without hesitation, I'd just ditch the Morel lifters, probably in favor of the Johnsons that Butler currently has.

I’d be a little worried with a flat tappet cam wiping out a lobe, I’ve had it happen. But I think I heard/read that issue is mostly figured out with the new cam materials and the right motor oil.

... & the right break in process