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Cam Information
Ken Croice / H-O Enterprises
Thank you so very much for sharing these Cam Dr printouts with me. There is a lot to go through and figure out exactly what this all is. I have managed to get together the information for one cam. ; Crane 969681 Blue Print 041 ; HC0235 01-17-90 Test # 35 ; Rocker Ratio - 1.5:1 Intake - 1.5:1 Exhaust ; ; C1_File_-_Header_Information From Papers ; PVN,ICL,ECL_=_xxx,113.8,113.8 ; Overlap_=_86.1 ; Intake_Open_=_31.9____Close_=_98.9____Duration_=_3 10.7 ; Intake_Cam_Lift_=_.31374____Valve_Lift_=_.47061___ _Area_=_25.85 ; Exhaust_Open_=_83.6____Close_=_54.2____Duration_=_ 317.9 ; Exhaust_Cam_Lift_=_.31319____Valve_Lift_=_.46978__ __Area_=_26.58 ; ; From a Different Piece of Paper ; 0.050_Overlap_=_8.4 ; Intake_0.050_Open_=_1.5____Close_=_50.2____Duratio n_=_231.6 ; Exhaust_0.050_Open_=_52.8____Close_=_6.9____Durati on_=_239.7 I have entered the lobe lift information for this cam into my computer if anyone would like to see any other information. I will as I have time add other HO cam information to this thread. Stan PS Let add the paper lists Checking Height = 0.004 This is what I get using the lobe lift data CAM______Lift______Opens___Closes__Duration _________________Deg_BTDC__Deg_ABDC_____________Ar ea____ICL _________0.00100____43.45_|_122.20_|_345.65_|__26. 08_|_129.38 _________0.00200____38.67_|_108.57_|_327.24_|__26. 06_|_124.95 _________0.00400____31.84_|__98.92_|_310.76_|__26. 04_|_123.54 _________0.00600____27.77_|__90.14_|_297.90_|__26. 00_|_121.19 _________0.00800____24.79_|__82.63_|_287.42_|__25. 96_|_118.92 _________0.01000____22.53_|__77.20_|_279.73_|__25. 93_|_117.34 _________0.02000____14.78_|__65.40_|_260.18_|__25. 78_|_115.31 _________0.04000_____5.21_|__54.28_|_239.49_|__25. 46_|_114.53 _________0.05000_____1.45_|__50.18_|_231.64_|__25. 27_|_114.37 _________0.10000___-14.18_|__33.72_|_199.54_|__24.05_|_113.95 _________0.15000___-28.41_|__19.15_|_170.75_|__22.12_|_113.78 _________0.20000___-43.49_|___4.01_|_140.51_|__19.43_|_113.75 _________0.25000___-61.28_|_-13.92_|_104.80_|__15.29_|_113.68 _________0.30000___-89.31_|_-41.84_|__48.86_|___7.44_|_113.74 |
Wow. The ICL at .006” tappet is 121* according to the later measurements, 90 intake close at .006”. You would have to advance that a ton to pump much compression even with 10:1.
Thanks Ken and Stan. |
As has been talked about here many times HO offered their own cams and each of these cams could vary based on which manufacture produced it.
; HC-03 Comp Cams ; HC0365 06-11-90 Test # 65 ; Rocker Ratio - 1.5:1 Intake - 1.5:1 Exhaust ; Checking Height = 0.004 ; ; C1_File_-_Header_Information From Papers ; PVN,ICL,ECL_=_xxx,113.7,113.7 ; Overlap_=_81.3 ; Intake_Open_=_37.6____Close_=_85.1____Duration_=_3 02.7 ; Intake_Cam_Lift_=_.33335____Valve_Lift_=_.50002___ _Area_=_28.21 ; Exhaust_Open_=_92.1____Close_=_43.8____Duration_=_ 315.8 ; Exhaust_Cam_Lift_=_.33724____Valve_Lift_=_.50587__ __Area_=_29.8 CAM_______Lift______Opens___Closes__Duration _________________Deg_BTDC__Deg_ABDC_____________Ar ea____ICL _________0.00100____49.35_|_101.60_|_330.95_|__28. 47_|_116.13 _________0.00200____43.97_|__93.52_|_317.49_|__28. 46_|_114.77 _________0.00400____37.36_|__85.31_|_302.67_|__28. 44_|_113.97 _________0.00600____33.24_|__80.84_|_294.08_|__28. 42_|_113.80 _________0.01000____28.10_|__76.65_|_284.75_|__28. 37_|_114.27 _________0.02000____20.52_|__68.38_|_268.90_|__28. 23_|_113.93 _________0.04000____11.07_|__58.64_|_249.71_|__27. 91_|_113.78 _________0.05000_____7.33_|__54.91_|_242.24_|__27. 81_|_113.79 _________0.10000____-8.48_|__39.36_|_210.89_|__26.61_|_113.92 _________0.15000___-22.75_|__25.04_|_182.29_|__24.84_|_113.90 _________0.20000___-37.52_|__10.12_|_152.60_|__22.00_|_113.82 _________0.25000___-54.45_|__-6.83_|_118.72_|__18.35_|_113.81 _________0.30000___-76.87_|_-29.13_|__74.00_|__11.96_|_113.87 Stan |
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There are a couple of printouts labeled Elgin. One a 909 and the other 778. That I can find both are still in the latest catalog.
Stan |
The current elgin 909 looks like aRA 3 on paper, but has reduced dwell over the nose, by a lot !
TV posted an image of the 2 cams ,side by side, a few years back. I think the cam is produced by a Co .called Power Products |
These 2 charts clearly ( I hope ) shows the difference of duration, between a checking clearence of .004" and .006".
Also note the difference of .004" and .006" of the 2 cams. The HC-03 cam has less duration change than the Elgin cam, indicating a faster lift rate on the more modern HC-03 |
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If I look at the 0.250" lifter raise duration for what you sent to me which is labeled the Elgin 909 / 744 I get 76.3 degrees If I look at the 0.250" lifter raise duration for what I have for what is called the SP3 OLD version I get 72.5 degrees If I look at the 0.250" lifter raise duration for what I have for what is called the SP3 NEW version I get 62.5 degrees Stan |
That is a lot of loss in duration on the SPC-3 at .25” against that Elgin.. I have looked over the years for performance numbers for guys running the current SPC-3 version of the 744, always seemed like it was’t an improvement over the 068 version. It appears one reason it falls short is from that lack in duration at the upper lifts, not enough dwell over the nose.
So an original 744 actually smaller than that Elgin? 76.3 versus 72.5 overlap. Is there are cam DR file floating around for a OEM 744? |
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They did Intakes, Harmonic Balancers, Camshafts, and other Pontiac related stuff. Ace was buying from them at one time. Flip of the coin type stuff for getting what you hoped for but was cheaper to purchase. A buyer and his mother raised H*ll with David B at least 7 years ago at Norwalk in the Vendor area and gave the Mother and her Son his money back for a PP Balancer. Good Business Practices. This would be quite a few years ago. Maybe they have their act together better now. Tom V. |
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I often wonder if 10:1 is enough compression, even with a 455? Of course. You being. "Mr. High Compression". It would have to be pump gas accessible for me. Just wondering??? |
I have never used Crane’s blueprint 041 cam. Looks to me like Crane may have used their own profile design versus holding true to the original. My impression of it looking at the cam DR number’s is it has potential to run some more compression than other 041 grinds I have seen. Not a ton more, it also shouldn’t need as much cranking compression to run well compared to other 041 grinds like the SPC-8 copies.
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I actually moved the Crower RAIV cam 4 times and raced the car after each movement.
It ran the best at 109ICL. It ran equally as well at 111ICL for MPH but off every so slightly in 60' times resulting in a couple hundreds worse ET. Moving it to 113ICL KILLED it, idled rough, "lazy" in the normal driving range, "soft" on 60' times and down 2mph on top end. Here's the real SHOCKER. Moving it to 107ICL KILLED it even worse. Desptie the fact that everyone regurgitates the "advance the cam for more low end torque" deal, it ran WORSE at 107ICL than at 109 and 111. Superficially it seemed a little more responsive right off idle and very light throttle driving the car, but a complete TURD at the track with good traction. Goes back to someone telling us a LONG time ago how sensitive these engines can be to the intake closing point.......FWIW....... |
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While that is great information about a Crower RAIV cam with out having a Cam Dr file of the Crower RAIV cam we have no way of knowing how that applies to the Crane or NOS RAIV cams. Stan |
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These number are not part of what was sent to me by Ken. This is a Pontiac 041. I have not been able to verify this numbers. Note most of the numbers above 0.050" are about this are about the same as the Crane, but the Crane seems to have more duration below that. Cam_-_041_Lift______Opens___Closes__Duration _________________Deg_BTDC__Deg_ABDC_____________Ar ea____ICL _________0.00100____47.00_|_103.00_|_330.00_|__27. 15_|_118.00 _________0.00200____43.67_|__99.67_|_323.33_|__27. 12_|_118.00 _________0.00400____37.00_|__93.00_|_310.00_|__27. 12_|_118.00 _________0.00600____31.29_|__87.29_|_298.57_|__27. 06_|_118.00 _________0.01000____23.67_|__78.00_|_281.67_|__26. 96_|_117.17 _________0.02000____14.50_|__63.00_|_257.50_|__26. 78_|_114.25 _________0.04000_____5.33_|__52.23_|_237.56_|__26. 00_|_113.45 _________0.05000_____2.00_|__49.15_|_231.15_|__26. 00_|_113.58 _________0.10000___-14.33_|__34.43_|_200.10_|__24.73_|_114.38 _________0.15000___-28.83_|__19.67_|_170.83_|__22.45_|_114.25 _________0.20000___-43.00_|___3.00_|_140.00_|__20.64_|_113.00 _________0.25000___-61.82_|_-15.00_|_103.18_|__16.10_|_113.41 _________0.30000___-89.15_|_-43.15_|__47.69_|___7.70_|_113.00 Stan |
Does anyone know what the amount of bleed down is (in 0.001's of an inch) at low RPM for the Rhoads lifters?
Stan |
IRC…Bleed down for original Rhoads is supposed to be .015”-.020” at the valve. So with 1.65s it should be between .009”-.012” tappet.
The pure stock guys have been getting cheated running the Melling SPC-8 or the other white box replica’s of the RA 4. That cam DR file is quite a bit bigger at the low seat timings. Plus it has some Asymmetry from .050 down. The Crower 60919 and Melling SPC-8 I have had did not have that. The Crane looked like a worthy replacement though. |
Crane 969681 Blue Print 041 with 0.010" removed from each lobe lift point
CAM_______Lift______Opens___Closes__Duration _________________Deg_BTDC__Deg_ABDC_____________Ar ea____ICL _________0.00100____21.55_|__75.31_|_276.86_|__24. 53_|_116.88 _________0.00200____20.61_|__73.71_|_274.31_|__24. 52_|_116.55 _________0.00400____18.91_|__71.09_|_270.00_|__24. 51_|_116.09 _________0.00600____17.43_|__68.93_|_266.35_|__24. 50_|_115.75 _________0.01000____14.78_|__65.40_|_260.18_|__24. 48_|_115.31 _________0.02000_____9.51_|__59.08_|_248.59_|__24. 37_|_114.78 _________0.04000_____1.45_|__50.18_|_231.64_|__24. 11_|_114.37 _________0.05000____-1.97_|__46.51_|_224.54_|__23.92_|_114.24 _________0.10000___-17.12_|__30.76_|_193.64_|__22.75_|_113.94 _________0.15000___-31.25_|__16.22_|_164.97_|__20.82_|_113.74 _________0.20000___-46.67_|___0.75_|_134.08_|__18.13_|_113.71 _________0.25000___-65.56_|_-18.21_|__96.23_|__13.78_|_113.68 _________0.30000__-101.00_|_-53.29_|__25.71_|___3.93_|_113.86 Stan |
"Cliff,
While that is great information about a Crower RAIV cam with out having a Cam Dr file of the Crower RAIV cam we have no way of knowing how that applies to the Crane or NOS RAIV cams." Back then Crower was just re-boxing RAIV cams from CMC. They would "juggle" the specs on the website to look like something they ground special but it was nothing but the SPC-8 cam sold under a dozen or so different labels. https://www.melling.com/wp-content/u...ck-294-304.pdf Even the cam card in the box deviated from the website info. The cam card in the box showed the cam at 304/316, 231/240 and 113LSA with .470" lift with 1.5 rocker arms. They may have started grinding their own at some point, but ALL of the 60919 cams I've purchased were just re-boxed RAIV cams.......FWIW........ |
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Back to the Elgin 909 / 744. It would be nice if someone had number from a NOS 744.
Here you can see that the intake never really dwells Green line and how the exhaust red line actually does dwell. Stan |
The Elgin 909 sure looks impressive.
Right now the Crower 60919 and the Melling SPC-8 (white box 041s) are ground on different cam cores. Very obviously different cams today. I have measurements from the last SPC-8 I did somewhere. As I recall it had 291* at .006” on the intake. My seat measurements on cams in factory blocks are generally 3 or 4 degrees less than a cam DR measurement. The advertised numbers (304 int, 315 exh) for the SPC-8 are .006” tappet at the valve, which takes into account the rocker ratios effect on duration. Closer to a .004” tappet duration depending on rockers ratios. I would expect a cam DR to show mid 290s int and mid 300s exh at .006” tappet on a SPC-8, but the centerlines won’t show much retard at the lower tappet lifts like the crane 041 and the 041 scan. I would not be too surprised if a SPC-8 would have some slight assymetric's at low tappet lifts on a cam DR. The cam DR finds things that you do not always see checking something by hand. |
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