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-   -   3.42 First gear Super T-10 in a track car (https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=837658)

Colin70TA 02-02-2020 06:33 PM

3.42 First gear Super T-10 in a track car
 
We are building a more dedicated autocross/road course car and the transmission I have is Iron case (904) and steel midplate Super T-10. The downside is the dreaded first gear. I am trying to figure out if it will stay together (at least for awhile!) for what we are doing considering it probably won't see first gear, especially on a road course. Are these transmissions weaker just because of hard launches with sticky tires out of first gear? Does this make the rest of the gears weaker somehow as well?
Will be in a 3200 Ibs 77 T/A with at least 500hp of Pontiac power.

Appreciate the input!
Colin

tom s 02-02-2020 06:50 PM

I think the 3.42 is rated at like 250 lb TQ

Colin70TA 02-02-2020 10:38 PM

Hi Tom,
Something low for sure but wondering if that just the case for hard first gear starts and then is it the same strength as any other super t10 for the remaining gears?

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tom s 02-02-2020 11:51 PM

I have been running them for almost 20 years.Had one in a 63 421 HO.Raced it a few times with a 3.42 in the back and never broke it.I think the weak spot will be between the main drive and the cluster.I have one in my 421 62 GP right now.A guy at Richmond told me they have a 20% fudge factor on their ratings.I think a iron case and mid plate will help.Worst that happens is you break it!Tom

Larry Navarro 03-09-2020 10:44 AM

I've toasted two late '70's Super T-10's in the '79 T/A with 3:23 rear and drag radials. I contacted Paul Cangelosi of 5speeds.com and had him build a new Autogear aluminum cased, billet mid-plate, all new internals, based on a Muncie M21.
Awesome trans for a fair price.

Stuart 03-09-2020 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin70TA (Post 6106552)
considering it probably won't see first gear, especially on a road course.

I think that's the key line in your post - also, at least on a road course you won't be doing a hard start from standstill, although for autocross that may be an issue.

Skip Fix 03-09-2020 02:23 PM

Autocross you will be lauching pretty hard at the start and using 1st some tight turns. In the 79 Camaro(with teh IA in it now) I autocrossed a 380 HP 383 with a ST-10 out of an 80 Z28 and 3.73s and 25" roadrace slicks and used 1st often.

Dragncar 03-09-2020 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Navarro (Post 6118118)
I've toasted two late '70's Super T-10's in the '79 T/A with 3:23 rear and drag radials. I contacted Paul Cangelosi of 5speeds.com and had him build a new Autogear aluminum cased, billet mid-plate, all new internals, based on a Muncie M21.
Awesome trans for a fair price.

How much ? My 79 TA has the aluminum Super T 10. I put a T350 in it for the mean time. Wife had trouble with the stiff clutch. I have the M021 that came in my 69 GTO and a Ford short shaft Top Loader I adapted to come up in the stock console for the GTO.
The TA will go back to a manual eventually. How much for the Auto Gear, horsepower rating ?

Colin70TA 03-10-2020 09:28 PM

Skip, did you have any issues or did it do okay? Although the car will see some autocross it will only be to shake down the car as we are setting it up mostly for road course duty. Was also thinking I could just start in second for the autocross work, it will have more then enough torque anyways :-)
As far as the autogear stuff it's definitely nice stuff and might happen down the road but we are trying to keep costs reasonable with this project and it's kind of a use what we have type of thing,
All this came about as we have been taking our cars to more and more track days and one of our friends wrote off his old car, he was okay but just by luck. So we decided to build a dedicated track car with a proper cage, fire system etc, life is too short already!

Johnny406 03-10-2020 10:16 PM

Fingers crossed, my 3.42 1st gear Super T-10 has lived with the 406 on my 81 T/A for both drag racing and autocross. I've only used street tires on it and have kept more pressure in the tires as a safety precaution. I do have a much stouter iron case T-10 1B (over the counter performance tranny) that will be going in the car sooner than later.

JSPONT 03-10-2020 11:02 PM

The iron case helps big time. The reason they are weak it the 3.42 gear is so small. Heavy car and sticky tires in an aluminum case has a short lifespan. The case spreads/ flex's and the gear shears. The iron case will not flex, this helps a bunch. Just take it easy on the launch.

Johnny406 03-11-2020 12:42 AM

Here's a ratio chart for the B/W T-10 if anybody needs one.

http://www.dandltransmission.com/borgratio.html

Sirrotica 03-11-2020 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colin70TA (Post 6106552)
We are building a more dedicated autocross/road course car and the transmission I have is Iron case (904) and steel midplate Super T-10. The downside is the dreaded first gear. I am trying to figure out if it will stay together (at least for awhile!) for what we are doing considering it probably won't see first gear, especially on a road course. Are these transmissions weaker just because of hard launches with sticky tires out of first gear? Does this make the rest of the gears weaker somehow as well?
Will be in a 3200 Ibs 77 T/A with at least 500hp of Pontiac power.

Appreciate the input!
Colin

Put a T400 in it and quit worrying about breaking it. I ran T400 in my dirt track cars as well as 2, 455 autocross T/As. If you have to shift gears on an autocross course your losing time. If you have a particularly slow portion on the course, the car downshifts with no clutch work, and upshifts with zero chance of a missed gear. Smooth is fast, and you can be much smoother many times with an automatic, at least it has been my experience.

Two years of running the 455 T400 T/As was extremely successful with both cars. I was class winner (C/Prepared) for the year with my 73. I took 4 first places, 1 second and a third and wound up with the trophy for the winner of the class that year. I also ran a borrowed T/A 6.6 400 77 Bandit car one time with a 4 speed, and saw no advantage over the T400 cars. The owner wanted someone to drive the car that had experience autocrossing, and asked me to drive it.

I've owned a good many 4 speed Pontiacs and never saw any advantage to using a manual transmission on a dirt track, or an autocross course, won a good number of events using a slushbox.

Both of the dirt cars in my signature pic have T400s, 67 GTO has a 400 engine, and the 69 GP had a 428 in it, zero transmission problems with either car over a 5 year period 13 feature wins, and a good many heat race wins over 5 years................:2cents:

JSPONT 03-11-2020 09:29 AM

autos= boring

3 pedals= mucho fun

Sirrotica 03-11-2020 10:23 AM

3 pedals, much more room for operator error, broken driveline parts much more frequently, missed gears, jammed shifters, been there done that, not my idea of fun. If you want to win, you have to have all the advantages in your favor.

2 pedals, almost no room for operator error, and dead consistent, never break a transmission or clutch, no shifter to jam, much easier to be able to judiciously modulate power to the wheels, (spinning ain't winning, in any form of motorsports). If winning races is boring, I'll take boring every time.

I've tried it both ways, and would never go back to a stick because of the need for consistency and reliability. This isn't drag racing the OP is talking about, it's closed circuit racing, totally different animal than running for 10 seconds in a straight line.

You have to ask yourself, why Jim Hall, one of the most successful engineers, innovators, and builders of the Chaparral sports cars, used a T400 in his road race cars, and was super consistent, won scores of races with his cars. Hard to argue with the success Jim Hall had using a T400 in his race cars for years.

I drove semi for 7 years, I've probably shifted a stick more times than many people on here. There is no pleasure from rowing gears for me whatsoever, in a race, street car, or a truck. It's monotonous, and there is no reason to subject myself to it.

When I was young, everything I owned had to be a stick shift, as I got older, and more experienced, nothing I owned had a stick shift in it. I do curently own an IH wrecker that has a 5 speed in it, if I could have gotten a truck with an Allison in it, for what I paid for the 5 speed truck, I would have bought a truck with an Allison.

:focus:

Skip Fix 03-11-2020 12:23 PM

Mine did OK. Got it second hand from my machine shop's brother years ago when he converted his 80 Z28 to an auto. Not sure if it's first gear is that low I'll have to look it up from the numbers It has a cast iron side plate but is aluminum. Even autcrossed it with the old Mr Gasket Veritgate I had had in my old 409 Impala in the 70s!.

If you go autocrossing a set of road race slicks (John Berget sells used race tires) makes it even more fun! I even has some heavy steel 16x10 wheels I had made form one of the circle track wheel companies for it I'll give you if you pay shipping!

Colin70TA 03-11-2020 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirrotica (Post 6118641)
3 pedals, much more room for operator error, broken driveline parts much more frequently, missed gears, jammed shifters, been there done that, not my idea of fun. If you want to win, you have to have all the advantages in your favor.

2 pedals, almost no room for operator error, and dead consistent, never break a transmission or clutch, no shifter to jam, much easier to be able to judiciously modulate power to the wheels, (spinning ain't winning, in any form of motorsports). If winning races is boring, I'll take boring every time.

I've tried it both ways, and would never go back to a stick because of the need for consistency and reliability. This isn't drag racing the OP is talking about, it's closed circuit racing, totally different animal than running for 10 seconds in a straight line.

You have to ask yourself, why Jim Hall, one of the most successful engineers, innovators, and builders of the Chaparral sports cars, used a T400 in his road race cars, and was super consistent, won scores of races with his cars. Hard to argue with the success Jim Hall had using a T400 in his race cars for years.

I drove semi for 7 years, I've probably shifted a stick more times than many people on here. There is no pleasure from rowing gears for me whatsoever, in a race, street car, or a truck. It's monotonous, and there is no reason to subject myself to it.

When I was young, everything I owned had to be a stick shift, as I got older, and more experienced, nothing I owned had a stick shift in it. I do curently own an IH wrecker that has a 5 speed in it, if I could have gotten a truck with an Allison in it, for what I paid for the 5 speed truck, I would have bought a truck with an Allison.

:focus:

Oh I get that an auto will be faster but I am just as much about having fun and a 4 speed is more fun. The more I have to work with the car to perform the more I'll learn and will be a better driver because of it.

Colin70TA 03-11-2020 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skip Fix (Post 6118685)
Mine did OK. Got it second hand from my machine shop's brother years ago when he converted his 80 Z28 to an auto. Not sure if it's first gear is that low I'll have to look it up from the numbers It has a cast iron side plate but is aluminum. Even autcrossed it with the old Mr Gasket Veritgate I had had in my old 409 Impala in the 70s!.

If you go autocrossing a set of road race slicks (John Berget sells used race tires) makes it even more fun! I even has some heavy steel 16x10 wheels I had made form one of the circle track wheel companies for it I'll give you if you pay shipping!

Thanks for the offer Skip! Unfortunately my brakes will be too big for anything but my 18" rims. I actually bought brand new Continental tires direct from Hoosier that they no longer use in a certain race series, they were only $125 each brand new!

Colin70TA 03-11-2020 03:02 PM

Not the best pics but ill get some more https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...55c7a8efd1.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...fa2bcea7b5.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...926af6b7fa.jpg

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Dragncar 03-11-2020 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirrotica (Post 6118641)
3 pedals, much more room for operator error, broken driveline parts much more frequently, missed gears, jammed shifters, been there done that, not my idea of fun. If you want to win, you have to have all the advantages in your favor.

2 pedals, almost no room for operator error, and dead consistent, never break a transmission or clutch, no shifter to jam, much easier to be able to judiciously modulate power to the wheels, (spinning ain't winning, in any form of motorsports). If winning races is boring, I'll take boring every time.

I've tried it both ways, and would never go back to a stick because of the need for consistency and reliability. This isn't drag racing the OP is talking about, it's closed circuit racing, totally different animal than running for 10 seconds in a straight line.

You have to ask yourself, why Jim Hall, one of the most successful engineers, innovators, and builders of the Chaparral sports cars, used a T400 in his road race cars, and was super consistent, won scores of races with his cars. Hard to argue with the success Jim Hall had using a T400 in his race cars for years.

I drove semi for 7 years, I've probably shifted a stick more times than many people on here. There is no pleasure from rowing gears for me whatsoever, in a race, street car, or a truck. It's monotonous, and there is no reason to subject myself to it.

When I was young, everything I owned had to be a stick shift, as I got older, and more experienced, nothing I owned had a stick shift in it. I do curently own an IH wrecker that has a 5 speed in it, if I could have gotten a truck with an Allison in it, for what I paid for the 5 speed truck, I would have bought a truck with an Allison.

:focus:

OT but, I get what you are saying. I was a big 4 speed guy forever. But if I could have got my Tundra with a 5 speed I would have. I do not like how all the car companies are shoving auto trannys down our throats. They want the maintenance money. Even though Toyota transmissions have made it to 1,000,000 miles. When you have computer controlled electric sensor controlled transmissions its just something to break that the average person has to pay big bucks for. LOTS of cars and trucks have issues with auto transmission maintenance.
I have had 6 daily driven manual transmission vehicles. Never had to replace one clutch. My work beater is at 240K with original clutch and exhaust.
Many times simple is better. But not better for car companies pocket books.


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