Timing cover removal
 

I need to remove my timing cover because there an oil leak between the front of the oil pan and the cover. The instructions say to drain the radiator and the block.
I don't want to drain the block because the coolant destroys the paint, and I just put the motor in it last spring. I want to lift the rear end up on jackstands, drain the radiator, and remove the bottom radiator hose. Then I want to reverse things by putting the rear-end back on the ground and raising the front so the engine is tilted back. Then remove the cover. I'm thinking this will keep the coolant in the block below the two holes at the top of the block. Has anyone tried this and if so, how well did it work? And if someone has an idea, I'm all ears. Thanks in advance.

I've always just removed the lower hose and let fly with the removal. You'll be changing the oil afterward most likely because some garbage always gets in the pan. Maybe rock the car back and forth a bit with the lower hose off to splash what you can out of the block before you remove the cover.

I have done that many times. It usually works good.
(might spin the water pump a couple times to get water out of it?)


:)

I must be missing something here. If your oil pan is leaking where it seals against the timing cover, why can't you just replace the oil pan gasket while leaving the timing cover installed?

Probably trying to avoid pulling the engine...

Way easier to pull cover than pull pan with engine in the car. My question is why would clean coolant hurt your paint? I've never had that problem. Also the drain plugs are way down below where nobody would see anyway.

Is it possible to remove the motor mount bolts and lift the engine up enough to drop the pan without removing the engine altogether?

Yes, if you raise the car in the rear drain the coolant, then lower it after it drains the coolant will be below the 2 front holes in the block. Yes I've done it before.

If you lean on the car, and the suspension compresses, you may still get some sloshing out the holes. To counteract that just raise the car a few inches on stands, taking the front suspension out of the equation, plus you get more room to take the 4 pan to timing cover bolts out.

Stuff rags in the gap at the bottom of the pan to minimize stuff falling into the pan. It's not to hard to drop something, and have it swallowed up into that gap, plenty of threads on this forum where that have dropped stuff into the pan, and went fishing with a magnet for the lost tool/parts.

The rest of the operation is fairly obvious, make sure to use a dab of silicone on the point where the front pan gasket meets the block/timing cover. I usually use two of the plastic gasket retainers in the front to locate the gasket, or glue it to the pan with super weatherstrip adhesive if you don't have the plastic retainers.

Make certain you tighten the balancer bolt to the torque spec. 160 lbs or the balancer may split on the keyway, it's fairly common if the bolt isn't torqued to spec.

Having performed this operation dozens of times in car, I think I covered most of the things associated with doing it, have fun....:thumbup:

Yes - you will only do it once like the rest of us. The pan will not come out unless the engine is at least 4-1/2" higher than the crossmember. Remember that the main bearing caps and counterweights are almost to the bottom of the pan. You first remove the engine mount bolts. Then you can only get about an inch and a half until the transmission bell hits the firewall. So you disconnect the bellhousing from the block. Then the fan hits the shroud so you remove the fan. If you have headers the collectors hit the floorboard so you remove the headers. This insanity keeps up until you have removed basically everything so the engine can balance precariously almost a half foot above where you started and you can finally slide the pan out. Really nothing stopping you from pulling the engine at this point because why scrape the remains of the pan gasket down into your eyes when you can finish pulling it out and flipping it over.

Lol, thanks for the info. [emoji846] Won't be trying that anytime soon.

I was either a slow learner. or my memory wasn't too sharp, I've done it twice......LOL

You're worried about water damaging the paint but you're willing to try to remove the pan in the car. What do you think that will do to the paint?

My experience is then your trading a front oil pan leak for a rear oil pan leak. Love my Pontiac's but oil pan leak free seal is very difficult and nearly impossible in the chassis. Wide pan, not enough fasteners, ancient technology, chopped wood gaskets, (cork), easily displaced rear pan seal. Would much rather deal with the timing cover.

Sirrtotica covered all the bases for a successful repair. The only thing I do slightly different is remove the mechanical fuel pump for assembly. You can leave it on but it can pull the cover off center and make it more difficult to get the cover on the long studs and under the drive cup without dislodging the front oil pan gasket piece. I just think it's easier to install the pump after the cover.

I do the same. If you have a compressor you can get additional water past the pump by forcing some air down through the thermostat opening in the intake.

Thanks for all the advice, as far as paint damage, it's not the water that damages it, it's the coolant. It runs down the block, down the pan, everything looks like crap. I just painted and installed that motor last spring after a rear main replacement, and it's leak free except for at the front. It's a h$ll of a lot easier to remove the timing cover than pull the motor or even raise the motor to replace the entire pan gasket. The half moon cork gasket on the front of the pan is part of the timing cover gasket kit so that's the way to go. I've yet to find a spray can paint that wi sta d up to antifreeze.
That being said, butler performance says they use gm gray engine sealant, is ultra gray the same thing? Also, do I apply sealant to both sides of the timing cover gasket, or just on one side around the 2 water jacket holes? And the 67 manual says to cement the cork gasket to the oil pan. Are they saying to use spray tack to glue it in place, and do I put any kind of sealant on either side of the cork gasket or just in th corners where it meets the block? Sorry for all the questions, but if you don't put sealant on or put the wrong stuff on the wrong side, you e d up with a leak.

There's a 1,001 ways to do the gasket. I prefer Gasgacinch to stick gaskets down, and with it you apply to both surfaces and let it set up for a few minutes. When the gasket comes in contact with the pan they grab and stick immediately. Basically very similar to rubber cement if you have used it. Timing cover gasket can either be stuck to block using Gasgacinch or Ultra Grey. Here lately I've been doing both sides with a skim coat of Ultra Grey with extra in corners. The Ultra Grey is extra insurance against leaks since it fills in holes and irregularities that the gasket alone might not fully seal.

One other question, do I put ultra Grey on the part of the cork gasket that contacts the bottom of the timing cover or just in the corners against the block?

Both sides. If you initially stuck the gasket down using the Gasgacinch like I mentioned before then you would have Gasgacinch on one side and Ultra Grey on the other, and then a suitable amount in any corner.

I prefer Ultra Grey over the other silicones because it really likes to stick to itself. Engines that I have taken apart that previously had clear, blue, or red silicone usually has strings of that stuff loose and either stuck in a passage or up against the oil filter screen. The Ultra Grey bonds well enough to itself that it stays in place.

Make certain before you jump into this that it's not the crank seal. I just went through that this past year.... I thought it was the pan seal at first but it was the crank. Took 3 tries to fix it. Both Fel-Pro seals leaked between the balancer and seal, Tin Indian Performance seal was the only one that worked.

Good advice Cardo, I've watched this leak since early June. After every drive I would inspect it with a light, mirrors and q tips. I suspected the crank seal because it wasn't replaced. But I cleaned the area thoroughly after every drive, and I could reach up behind the balancer with a q tip and swab the seal area and it was clean and dry. I also know that when they smeared ultra Grey on the outside where the pan and timing cover meet, it slowed it considerably, but didn't stop it.

I KNOW what caused this. I told them when I took the motor in, that one of the bottom thread holes in the timing cover was stripped and it needed a helicoil. When I discovered the leak 3 weeks after I got it back on the road, the first thing I did was tighten the bolts to see if it would stop it. Instead of 12 ft lbs, the front bolts were only at 6 lbs, and the one I told them to helicoil just spun. They didn't helicoil it, and that's where it's leaking. I installed a helicoil myself and tightened it to 12 ft lbs, but it still kept leaking. Once the gasket gets oil soaked through, it just wicks out. The only way to stop it is to replace it.