Quick cam suggestions ?
 

I've run in a fresh 462 and ran into a oil pan leak , valley pan leak and a light coating of milky substance on the inside of the valve covers.
Needles to say I removed the engine and am in the proces of taking it apart again.

I've always been wary about the XE274H cam in the build ( negative posts ).
The problems I'll address but , I've been searching thrue a lot of posts about a fitting cam and I only get more confused about the load of info to absorb.


My goal was 500 hp
So now that it's on the engine stand and I need to order parts anyway , any quick suggestions on the cam ?

462 , BRC pistons , eagle rods , eagle cast crank.
KRE D-ports cleaned up and 2.11/1.66 valves , Harland Sharp 1.5 RR
Q-jet modified according to Cliffs instructions , RPM intake.
Everything port matched , Hedman 1 3/4 headers.
TH400 / TCI converter stall 2000 , 3.31 : 1 gears.

DO you have any flow numbers on the heads?

If they where just cleaned up they likely flow some 272 intake cfm at between .550” and .600”.

They should make you a easy 500 hp if your compression is atleast 9.5 and if your new can pick will provide you with .550” lift, which should be your target number to hit.

Those HR rockers check in at 1.6 in ratio.

Check out the specs of the SD Performance "stump puller" cam. Something similar to that should work well in your build. I have used that cam with great results in a 461 iron head and a 455 KRE head motor. One car had 3.31 gears and the other had 3.08 and 3.42 gears. Cam worked well in all of them.

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Bob, I have something similar, but with a T2/Demon, 3200 converter. I ordered the top end stuff from SD Perf. I told Dave I wanted around 500 hp and to get down the track in around 11.5 in a 3200 lb car. He set me up with KRE 295 @ .550" dports and a .570 lift Stump Puller.

The heads should flow 270 cfm. cleaned up.
Compression calculated to 10.33:1.

I'm going to check out SD .

Thanks , Bob.

I checked out SD for the 'old faithfull ' cam and I'm no 'scrooge' but the price difference between the XE274H $ 170.00 and old faithfull $ 470.00 is something that boggles my mind ?

The SD performance one is a hydraulic roller, the XE274H looks like a hydraulic flat tappet at that price? HR cams are just more expensive.

Oil leak related.. Invest in a ONE PIECE oil pan seal.
be gentle with the edges, but It can solve many leaking issues.

Hard to go wrong with the RAIV cam (Melling SPC3) for a street 455.

I would avoid the XE-cams like the plauge. Noisy ping prone POS on anything but 7.5:1 CSB.

JMHO

I think you meant to say spc-8 for RAIV

Spc-3 = rounded nose 744


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1.5 HR rockers are really 1.6?

I'd like to hear more about this too as I have them in my engine. I always thought under pressure they would flex and be closer to the 1.5

i have read that the 1.65 are closer to 1.7 or 1.72... but this is the first ive heard that the 1.5s are really a full 1.6. i have the HS 1.5s too & have been considering going to 1.65 for a little extra lift & duration on my E- head 467 with OF cam.

anyone else heard of this or can confirm it?

SD Performace website list the HS 1.5 rocker ratio as "actual ratio is typically around 1.55." also mentions the 1.65 ratio closer to 1.7-1.72 as well

I went through this a couple yrs ago with the HS rockers. I checked the lift of HS 1.65 using light checking springs with a dial indicator and got a ratio of 1.78. However after installing the running springs the actual ratio dropped to 1.69.
I did the same test with my HS 1.5 s and got a running ratio of 1.56

The aluminum rockers flex a bit when fully loaded.
BTW: Test was done using CC valve springs with 350# at .560 lift
Larry

You are absolutely correct, SPC-8 it should be.

Exhaust ti intake ratio flow?

Bullet has the Ultradyne lobes I've had good luck with .

Oh yes... years ago running circle track we had a rule for max lift at the valve. On paper my total lift was within spec, but when checked by officials after a feature win, my advertised 1.55 rockers were closer to 1.6xx and put me over the limit. You almost need to check with a dial indicator or work with a known source to have an exact number.

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Good ol' Schneider cams.
Been around since the 50's or 60's.
Not sure whar exactly you're looking, so I'll provide links to a few pages.
Straight up solid lift and hydro roller cams are apparently custom grinds these days.

http://schneidercams.com/hydraulicli...shafts-23.aspx
http://schneidercams.com/solidroller...shafts-13.aspx

Apparently SD performance are so busy they can't even reply to a simple email ?

Roller lifters ?
 

So , SD isn't responding so I'm reading up on the cam choise and just when I'm considering the 'old faithful ' rollercam I come across a post concerning roller lifters.
(https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...60#post6288960 )

Am I to conclude from this that a SFT cam is the way to go ?

I've got a classic Mini Cooper who runs a SFT also without problems and the cam for the small cubes is way more aggressive. ( 84 ci / cam 280/290)

Schneider
http://schneidercams.com/pontiacv-8.aspx

Howards
https://www.howardscams.com/products...engine/265-455

Isky
https://iskycams.com/downloads/IskyCatalog.pdf

I agree with Skip.

Not long ago I worked with Tim Goolsby at Bullet Racing Cams for a new cam in my current 505. Tim worked with Harold Brookshire at UltraDyne for 21 years.

They have have both UltraDyne lobes and their own designs.

https://bulletcams.com/

Harold when he owned UltraDyne did a lot of Pontiac cams and Jim Butler recommended and sold a lot of them !
Here was a statement by Harold Brookshire:

"Although I have done only a few Buick cams, I have done an awful lot of Pontiac's and Oldsmobile. Jim Butler, famed Pontiac engine builder, was my largest buyer of camshafts at UltraDyne, doing over $65,000 a year.
He thought they worked very well, until the Recession of 2000 left us with an inability to keep him supplied."



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yes SD is very busy & being a one man shop, or at least one man replying to emails & technical questions, it can take a little while for a reply sometimes. dave has always replied to my emails even well after buying parts or services, but it can take a few days or a week sometimes, when he does reply he provides very detailed info, much more than expected.

as for lifter failures, its just like many other failures or problems, you only read about the bad ones & never the 10s of thousands doing fine, kinda like the cast crank failures. yes there are some lifter failures but the vast majority of street engines running a standard comp type hyd roller lifter dont have major failures... some tickers are more common but for either situation there are so many variables its hard to know why they failed. i have had 2 sets of comp roller lifters on a OF cam, the older ones did tick a little but SD & comp warranted them & replaced with the newer S type that have been mostly silent with thousands of street miles & lots of drag strip runs on them for 6+ years now... (knock on wood)

the hybrid SFT lifter on a hyd roller cam thing has been done quite a bit & cliff r swears by it being very reliable & quiet when lashed right.

I can't seem to open Bullits product list.
It comes out as gibberish ?

' read only ' in the US or what ? :)

When I talked to Mike Jones he said if doing his own engine he would use Johnson hyd rollers.FWIW,Tom

78w72, “the hybrid SFT lifter on a hyd roller cam thing has been done quite a bit & cliff r swears by it being very reliable & quiet when lashed right“

I assume you meant to say solid roller lifters. Just wanting to keep this clear.

Thanks
Murf

doh! yes i meant solid roller lifters... early morning post. ;)

Bullet Racing Cams Maters lists....

UltraDyne lobes
https://bulletcams.com/Masters/ultradynemasters.html

Their own cam designs
https://bulletcams.com/Masters/Masters.htm

Custom cam

Pick the the number of degrees desired for the lobe. Then if desired choose the exhaust lobe with the extra duration that suits your combination.... example 4, 6. 8, 10 and up degrees.
This to suit the exhaust-to-intake ratio on the heads in use. Then apply any lobe separation desired....108, 110, 112 or more.

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Agree with Steve...give Tim at Bullet a call and tell him what you have and want to accomplish. He will give advice on how to accomplish your goals...class act and very knowledgeable.

Thanks for the link.

Now I can see even more of a puzzle.
I take it this is more of a specialist site for guys like Butler and Kauffman etc. , not for the average Joe , like myself ? :)

Butler cam
 

I've been searching the mechanical cams but the selection isn't that big and they're more dragstrip oriented.
How about this one ? . . . This seems to fit the bill , not sure if my compression ratio is compatible (10.3:1)

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...tegory:1234796

Regarding Dave at SD Performance not returning calls... in addition to being a small shop, the family was hit with a major land slide on their property a while back. I can only imagine the struggle to deal with that issue along with keeping the shop running at some capacity.

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Butler/Comp SP Street Performance Cam, Hyd FT, 284/296, 240/246, .507/.510, 112 Hyd. CCA-BP6018SP

That Butler hyd flat tappet cam is comprised of Comp XE lobes 5447 on the intake and 5209 on the exhaust, then custom ordered with a 112 lobe separation.


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The Comp solid lifter cam with those lobes will also act about 12-15 degrees smaller @ .050" than a similar flat cam so plan accordingly. They used to say to allow about 10 degrees hydraulic flat tappet to flat solid. I did some back to back testing once and found it was a bit more than that, and I used Comp XTQ lobes and almost the same specs as the cam listed from Butler.........

A td bit for conversation.....

Years ago when UltraDyne was still in business Jim Butler used to order and recommend the following UltraDyne mechanical flat tappet cam for a Pontiac application.
At the time Jim stated 1.2 BHP/CID with 9.5 compression. 540 HP in a 455.

Further in the UltraDyne catalog at the time that specific mechanical FTC cam was listed as "Popular street/strip cam, 455 with 2800 ss converter"

276 / 284 at .020"
241 / 251 at .050"
.518" / .530" lift w/1.5 rocker ratio
Ground with a 110 lobe separation.

Those lobes are listed here on the Bullet Racing Cams web site:
https://www.bulletcams.com/Masters/Flobes.htm

If you were interested in something like that cam Tim at Bullet could make it.
Or depending on the heads in use he could alter the amount of additional exhaust duration.
In addition if you did not want a 112 lobe separation he could also alter that.

( Information provided in this post does not represent any endorsement. And unless specified it is not based on personal experience and is offered for general interest only )


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How much difference there is between a hydraulic and solid lift cam can vary a great deal. Some cam designers will use the same lobe for both hydraulic and solid tappet cam. With the only difference being what kind of lash ramp is added. A tight lash (0.012 - 0.014) give up less duration than a (0.020 - 0.026) cam will against a hydraulic.

Stan

Usually the tight lash cams are more aggressive. They loose less duration with less lash, but they also have quite a bit less seat timing. Against a hydraulic cam another 15* @.050 is not far off, even though it is only loosing 8* taking up the lash, the shorter seat timing reins in the power band. The short seat of the Comps XE cams act similar, they won’t turn that many RPMs for how big they look at .050”. XE 274 often run out of steam before 5000, I recall an out of the box KRE d port dyno even maxing out HP at 4500 RPM. The bigger 284 is usually done before 5500, it will probably have no issue making 500 HP, but there are better cams. Some of the SFT designs that have bigger lashes often have quite a bit more seat timing, and the 10 degree difference to the hyd cam hold pretty close. Not to easy to compare, often guys end up to small on their SFT choices..

I thought that Bullet Ultradyne grind Steve brought up was a really good pick. If you talked to Tim at Bullet I doubt he would make much for changes from that in a SFT. I’d probably suggest a wider LSA since the car has a low stall and highway gears, Tim likely would also. Those profiles are easy on parts, don’t need a ton of spring pressure, and make great street cams. I’d take out any XE HFT and swap for one of those Bullet SFT grinds in one of my cars in a heart beat.

Bullet has some HFT cams that work well also. Some high rpm cams similar in size to the .050” ratings of the XE 284 but have quite a bit more lobe lift, IRC they are .530+ with 1.5s. My go to HFT profiles at Bullet have been their .3334” lobe series. The 283* @.006” , 235*@ .050” paired with 291* @.006 and 244* @ .050” end up having .50” lift with 1.5s and .550” with 1.65s. It lopes some when ground on a 112 LSA, but overall a lot better cam than the XE284. We did a 280/288, 232/240 in 112 with 1.65s (.550” lift) for a GTO 455 with 3.07 gears and a 2500 stall. It barely lopes at all, drives around like it has a stock cam, but when you open the throttle, you quickly realize it is not a stock 068 cam anymore!

Worth a call to Bullet, at very least you will have something to compare with what Butler sells.

So I filled out the Bullet cam recommendation form.
Hopefully they have the time to respond.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

"The bigger 284 is usually done before 5500, it will probably have no issue making 500 HP, but there are better cams."

I've witnessed dyno runs with both the XE274 and XE284 cams in 455 engine builds. Both of the engines were well prepared, good pistons, rods, "ported" factory iron heads, etc.

The 455 using the XE 274 cam was topped with 6X heads, mildly ported, factory intake, and they borrowed my carb for the testing. It cranked out a whopping 412hp and DONE by 4800rpm's. The peak torque number was decent, over 500ft lbs, happened at 3200rpm's but clear down to 414 ft lbs at 4900rpm's, which simply means it's a "turd" in the upper mid-range and top end and threw all it's power at you in a very narrow RPM range.

I had no input in the 455 that used the XE 284 cam, we didn't even know what cam was in it the day of the testing, it was just in line in front of me and they couldn't get chit of power out of it, so we watched for hours as they messed with it trying to get decent numbers.

Most pulls were barely 400hp and it never did hit 500tq. It was using ported 7K3 heads, Street Dominator single plane intake and 850cfm carb. They finally settled on 430hp and nudged a little over 500tq out of it.

I thought the numbers for both builds were "low" for the combination of parts, but they were on the same dyno I use, same operator, etc. Matter of fact my first 455 with 6X heads, iron intake, q-jet etc went on the dyno right after the XE284 cammed 455 and cranked out 455.4 hp on the first pull and 530tq..........

I don’t understand why, especially with flat hydraulic cams, that cam companies don’t sell “broken in” sets of cam and lifters. Seems like if you devised a simple set up with an old block, a strong electric motor, a good oil pump and adequate valve spring pressure it wouldn’t be that hard to do [emoji2369]

Nothing more nerve wracking than firing up a totally brand new motor knowing that if you don’t get it fired and spinning 2000+ rpm right away that you could wipe a cam lobe and are now facing all of the related hassle and expense that causes. Just a thought.


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I bought the XE274H together with a bunch of engine parts with advice from Ken Keefer in 2005.
Maybe it was all 'the rage' in that year , I don't know.

All I know is that I'm swapping out more parts then i'd like to for this build.
But hé . . . live and learn ! :)

You’ll get action a whole lot faster if you call them. Tim is busy but good to work with.


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Tim Goolsby. Worked with Harold Brookshire for 21 years at UltraDyne.

https://www.bulletcams.com/

Two Master lists in that link, UltraDyne lobes and Bullet lobes.



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You're probably right , but don't forget I'm Dutch and english is not my first language.
So calling somebody about technical info on a cam and car , is going to be to much of a improvisation on my part and can be a ground for mistakes.
And that is what I like to avoid , being that I'm on the other side of the ocean and this hobby is already very expensive because of that.

Emails give you time to think about stuff.

Understood about the language challenges, but I would try calling and even if you tell him “Please read my email so we don’t make mistakes“ it might get you your cam faster. Your english and Tim’s southern drawl should make for a very interesting call, haha.


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It shouldn’t be a problem doing the cam by email with Bullet, it will just take some extra time. I have a friend that runs a machine shop that mainly does cams via email. Often he goes with the company that replies first. Bullet seems to take longer than some other companies for a reply.

There is a cam core shortage over here and everything with cams generally takes longer than normal. Sometimes you can get lucky and the wait isn’t too bad.

I was on the phone with Tim at Bullet a few years ago and he had just finished working on a cam change for a Top Fuel team somewhere in the Middle East. They send cams all over the world.

With cam core shortages in mind, a year ago I called Tim at Bullet Racing Cams and they had no blank cores on hand with the specific Pontiac journal diameter. However they did have some new cams already made on hand that could be re-ground under some circumstances. They have hundreds of lobes to offer and could come close in the specs desired, enough so you could not tell the difference once installed in the engine.

About that time frame I sent a old Pontiac solid roller cam to Tim that they previously made for me. It was slightly damaged on one lobe. I had him regrind it to another profile, the cost was $157 plus fright.
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I got a HR from Tim last year and all they had were 4/7 swap billet cores:

Grind # PO 291/296HR112+4
Has 236/241 at .050
.3823 lobe lift on both sides
112 lobe separation 108 intake centerline
4/7 swap firing order
Lobe # HR291/.3823 intake HR296/.3823B exhaust