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out with the old...
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My 71 Lemans ragtop had a stroked 400 (440) with Edelbrock Port FI and KRE 85cc heads, roller cam; all hooked up to a M22Z and 2.93 8.5" posi. It struggled to get double digit fuel mileage. I know the purpose of these cars is not fuel mileage, but given we may be in Europe with it and $8/gallon fuel is not good.
So the 440 was sold off locally and the transmission assembly to somebody on the board. My Trans Am has a LS3 EROD crate motor in it coupled to a TKO-600; outstanding power with decent mileage and superb drivability - so I looked in that direction. GM LS motors come in 3 versions: 1997-2004 Gen III: these are 4.8's, 5.3's, and 5.7's They have cable throttle bodies and cathedral ports 2005-2013 Gen IV: 4.8, 5.3, 6.0 were the main sizes and were drive by wire with rectangular ports. 2014 to present Gen V: 5.3 and 6.2 are the main guys, DBW and Direct Injection and here, with 2019 to present having more advanced ECU's. I initially wanted to by a Gen IV GM 5.3 crate motor, new - but GM does not sell those even with a big demand for them (the used market is drying up). I ran across this on eBay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/265152154490 A brand new 2019 L84 with most of the stuff I will need. The sale was consumated and the seller was quick to ship the motor. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1644795067 |
Of course I will need a transmission to hook up to this little monster. I initially was set on an automatic; either a 6L80E or 8L90E.
GM supposedly makes a version of the former hopped up for aftermarket use. But it is not available due to the chip shortage (this trans has one inside the case). Same story with the 8L90E. Another issue is these do not fit A bodies that well at all, and the pan sits about 2" below the frame. Also, a common issue with ECU tuners is the Engine/trans interface. :rain: So, let's see what's going on with the manual side of things. Tremec has come out with their new TKX; I guess a slimmer version of the TKO. I noted online these are somewhat scarce, and 5.3's are not drilled for input shafts. Bugger. So I shelved the trans issue until the engine showed up Monday. Or so I thought as it appeared late Friday afternoon as I was gearing up to go home. It was quickly unloaded and cover removed to reveal a pair of counterbores, the outer being the modern pilot bearing size! So much for internet experts. Friday night was occupied by a search for transmissions, bellhousings, and flywheels. The Gen V (LT) architecture is NOT the same as the earlier series: bellhousing won't interchange as the top bolt is offset for the high pressure fuel pump. Oil pan, motor mounts and other stuff is different too. F First item is the bell housing - it is the key here. Some searching revealed Lakewood makes a nice little piece: https://images.holley.com/583x/lk5000k_01.jpg Holley sells them for $371.95, part #LK5000K Summit was out, as was Jeg's Excellent, now to secure a TKX. Holley also carries them in 3 flavors: TCET17805 2.87 FIRST AND 0.68 OD TCET18083 3.27 first and 0.72 OD TCET17722 2.87 first with 0.81 OD https://images.holley.com/583x/tkx_001.jpg I selected the TCET18083 due to it's deeper 1st (good for traffic and hills)and middling OD which won't be too onerous with the 2.93's out back In stock at Holley and $2,795 to the back roll up of the shop. Another dividend of the TKX is I can still run the steam gauges and not have to go GPS or CANBUS driven gauges. I plan to work with Speedhut to make a more stock looking gauge unit than the Dakota setup this summer when things slow down a bit. |
Very cool...and with your 2.93s and stockish tire height your final drive will be 2.10 to 1. That thing is gonna cruise at LOW RPM and should get great mileage.
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That's a pretty good deal. I haven't stayed up on the latest truck engines. Looks like 355 horsepower. That's up quite a bit vs. the previous 5.3. I think they topped out around 320hp.
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Wow, that's a great deal for a long block! Congrats!
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This article cemented it for me:
https://www.motortrend.com/features/...4-868d2dad0e4b As you see the Direct Injection motor is significantly more powerful and efficient. https://www.motortrend.com/uploads/s...und%7C1000:625 Since I am deleting the DOD feature, I will need a new cam - I plan to use the LT1 delete cam, about 6 degrees more duration and 0.050 more lift. |
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This is a shot of the L84 with her fiddly bits exposed.
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1644854666 |
I'm going down the same road. Currently have the interior out. I'm working on repainting the dash. Next rewire whole car. Stock 5.3 to get it rolling. Then I'll step it up. The direct injection is cool. I need to read up on that.
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More than willing to help - this is a lot of research as the DI motors are another breed from the LS' units.
GM would sell a metric ****load if they made 5.3 Gen 4 longblocks for 4-5 grand. |
TKX arrived today - gave it the once over to verify no visible damage. Info sheet shows it use a Ford manual speedo...
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/01...g?v=1641419945 This little bugger, part number 7002129, 7002131, speedo gear runs $93 shipped to a US address from Bowler Mechanical. Will need a new cable as the output is on the driver's side unlike the M22Z. |
I was under the impression that the TKX also had a VSS signal?
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It does, in fact it may have 2 different types as there are 2 pigtails coming out of that area.
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One of those pigtails may be for reverse lights.
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That one is on the driver side - a detent switch with two threaded posts that are too close to each other if it is anything like the TKO 600 I have...
I found this to explain more, page 12: https://www.tremec.com/anexos/TKX-Se...KX_09.2020.pdf |
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The LT1 headers came today. These are 2016-2020? Camaro 6.2 liter non-supercharged manifolds. They are formed and welded - very nice pieces. Note also they are Tri-Y style. The manifolds had a width issue: the were 29-1/4" outside to outside. The headers clock in at 25-3/4" - much better and able to drop in.
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1645222684 https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1645222703 I will still need to mod the clutch bellcrank to clear, or fab a new one - maybe 1964-67 style. The red circle marks where on the block the old pivot bolt was on the 440. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1645222713 https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1645222722 |
Those headers don't look like you can dent them to make that stud work. Time for some creative fabrication.
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no, it won't work at all without heavy modding. As you can see the passenger side runs head on into the A-arm rear mount.
It would take a sizeable amount of modding to clear. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1646017886 The factory L84 (truck) manifolds are worse. The flanges span is about and inch too wide to fit inside the frame rails - so they are out. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1646017900 I ordered a set of Hooker manifolds, part # BHS516. Hopefully they clear, another Summit customer noted they cleared his 72 Chevelle. If not I will need to revisit modifying the headers. I do not think they can work with the stock clutch Z-bar. https://www.vividracing.com/wm.php/i...M/BHS516_4.jpg |
I thought someone offered LS/LT swap headers for A bodies. Are any available or are you wanting to stick with manifolds? Looking forward to seeing more about your swap and how it performs.
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Engine swap Supply has these, but not in shorty form for "A"s as far as I can tell.
I have not seen a big enough difference in tests online to warrant the trouble of headers. Note that LS headers will not work - the exhaust and intake ports swapped positions, one of the big differences between LT and LS motors. Other issues are oil pans, motor mounts, intakes... it goes on and on. |
I haven't ben here in ages, but this build is exciting! I recently helped a buddy with a LT1 into a BMW, using the Holley Terminator X Max with DI. The engine has a baby cam and it is a monster. It is making as much torque and HP as his previous 408 gen 4 stroker and it idles at 40kPa, which is just mind blowing.
I hope you use the Holley Terminator X Max! Also, Silver Sport transmissions makes an excellent hydraulic clutch kit for the TKX. I've used their firewall MC mount for years in my GTO and it works great. I would lean in that direction for clutch activation. You won't be disappointed. I tune Holley EFI for a living and would gladly offer help with wiring and tuning, if you go with the Holley EFI. Andrew |
Andrew - that is an option with the Holley, though $2,500+ is pretty steep! I have not committed to a management setup yet. I would like to hear more from you on this.
The Hooker manifolds work very well - only thing that could be better is if they allowed the clutch Z-bar to work. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/ls1tech...50c6a54c87.jpg Lotsa room! https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/ls1tech...2408af5d0e.jpg |
The L84 is machined for a manual, something I am told earlier 5.3's are not.
The TKX supposedly the same input dimensions as Muncies, Saginaws, ST-10's and the rest. First thing off the bell housing did not completely engage, leaving a 0.050" gap at the top. Mnnh. Removing the housing showed the some bolt heads were impacting. :rolleyes: https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/ls1tech...ac3b7fdc20.jpg Not good. I would have expected Lakewood or Holley to catch an error like this. A minute of the Bridgeport fixed the issue. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/ls1tech...c27c7a699e.jpg Next up the starter ring gear was too close for comfort - the mill was once again called into service. https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/ls1tech...55932e18c0.jpg Next up will be mounting the flywheel and checking bell housing runout and clearance. |
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Starting to disassemble the motor to replace the cam and remove the Active Fuel Management lifters and solenoids. To do this the heads have to come off, and you cannot reuse the head bolts either.
This motor, even though new, must have been test run as the fuel lines still held pressure and the spark plugs were a bit soiled. The rocker arms have roller bearing trunnions and are works of art. The arrow shows this weird-ass head bolt that for some reason has a socket head. It is 13mm - I am sure most people walk around with a 13mm Allen socket in their pocket. I had to cut the top off of a chisel that had a 1/2 hex body (12.7mm) and use it with a 13mm socket - worked well. These head bolts are not torqued that much... https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647060401 I pulled the heads with the injectors still attached, not sure why others remove them. I will need to swap out the springs for LS7 units. Under the intake is the high pressure piping for the injectors, the booster pump is at the back which is driven by a rounded triangular lobe on the cam. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647060583 Removing the piping and valley cover reveal the AFM solenoids and wiring - all that comes out and the 'noids are replaced with machined plugs. These solenoids control oil flow to the lifters; activating or deactivating them. There is also a round hole in the cover for the round wiring connector in the front - that needs plugging too. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647060938 The pistons are quite convoluted - seems GM spent a lot of Cray time calculating flame travel and the like. With the power these put out it seems their homework paid off. |
Cool stuff. Thanks for posting!
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Have you thought about using a hydraulic clutch throwout? I put on on my '55 Chevy made by RAM Clutches and it worked great.
I used a Wilwood master cylinder kit for it that I got from American Power Train. |
Yes, that is what I am using. The flywheel is made by Ram as are the clutch and pressure plate.
I had good luck with the Wilwood master and Howe throw out bearing in the Trans Am so will do that. The mechanical linkage worked very well so was trying to work with it. |
What size are the exits on all the exhausts you have tried?
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Hydraulic? |
OG: hydraulic, no choice.
Skip: the Hooker manifolds are 2-1/2" outlet, the LT1's 2-1/4 ish. More than enough for a 324 cubic inch motor. I do not plan on running a cross-over or X-pipe. |
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Time to change the cam. This is the spec for the old cam:
193/199 .502"/.494" 114LSA nice cam, for a truck. This is what I stuffed in: 200/207 .551"/.524" 116.5LSA If I need to change the cam I am not going to run the same truck specs. The timing gear is integral with the variable valve train (VTEC, yo...). I see no reason to change that. It has this bolt assembly that moves the timing hydraulically. It is actuated by a solenoid in the timing cover. The VVT gear bolt is 14mm-1.5. I found a truck stud the same size (Dorman 610-333) from a 1988-2000 C3500 and welded it to a piece of tubing - make a nice cam install tool. The cam bearings seem tighter than Pontiac cam bearings. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647146279 The 2019 and later engines have an improved oil pump with locating pins; evidently earlier units if not installed correctly would result in pressure failure did not have these pins and required guides to relocate the pump. The lifter activation solenoids are replaced by these little buggers, blocking off the oil ports. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647146503 |
...a Tale of Two Oil pans
This is the Holley swap pan. It is specific to Gen V engines.
It is a nice piece - for $400 it should be. The O-ring on the left goes down thru a little tunnel then a welded steel pickup pipe. As you note it also has a nice baffle. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647146789 This is the Holley pan compared to the stock truck unit. About 3-4" difference in depth, and the sump is narrower - Holley made this as small as can be. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647146880 |
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https://sdparts.com/i-24120754-sdpc-...SABEgI2WvD_BwE |
His GenV is a whole different beast than your Gen3 5.3. That said, the cam you listed would be a really good upgrade to wake up a 5.3 without comprimising too much down low. Lift numbers are high enough to effectively utilize the flow potential of stock cathedrals and even a cheap PAC 1218 spring would be able to accommodate. What are you putting it in, trans, converter, gears?
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GM to me is rather tame on the cams - I felt 7 degree increase would be a mild step, especially since the intake runners are so long.
It is the same cam as the base 6.2 Camaro/Corvette 2019 and 2020. |
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Are you running the TH400 with the 5.3?
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That would be a nice combo.
In order to run the LT1 cam you need to change the valve springs - not sure why... Current wisdom is to run the LS7 springs. I picked up a set from Summit; they come with shims, keepers and whatever those top things are called. Changing them I tried to use a lever setup - pain in the ass. Then it dawned on me I have a perfectly good hydraulic press, so I made a wee fixture with a washer and scrap steel: worked perfectly. Needed to shim up the head with scrap wood as the valves are at an angle. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647490444 Note how the valves are splayed - it is not due to the lens here, they lean about 5 degrees each way. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647490458 Once this was done the heads went on to the block. The bolts are torque-to-yield - they use a different sort of spec. You tighten to 59 ft-lbs then a quarter turn then 40 degrees. I used my torque wrench and it usually clicked at 105 when the final turn was done so I know it is in the ballpark. I hope I was supposed to put a bit of fastener lubricant under the bolt head! |
Ready to go minus pilot and clutch.
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647662529 Pretty severe angle! https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647662541 Shifter sticking thru, though needs to be offset. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647662551 Will need to lower tail and remove shifter, then jiggle around to best position and fab engine mount brackets. |
OOPS, I cannot see your pictures in your last post.
Even from the links in my email. |
neither can I, will need to repair that...
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SWEET
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Nice!
You certainly aren't wasting any time. I thought it would take you longer to get this in the car. I did some reading about the TKX. Sounds like they drastically improved it over the older TKO units. |
Thanks. It was just a test shot so to speak - Apollo 8 kinda thing to check for issues, which a few were found.
Work is nuts right now - this project is therapy. There are a few things with the LT motor swaps that are not addressed properly to me, ie the power steering (and engine mounts believe it or not) that I feel I can contribute to. Also, every 5.3 I have seen has been an automatic, maybe the TKX will solve this shortfall. |
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Finished up work a bit early today so decided to go for it on the mounts.
I had some blanks laser cut a few weeks ago - I measured them so they would nest onto a Pontiac/Olds clamshell lower mount. These also fit towards the center of the block, unlike the Chevy style which are forward. If you pull the trans the motor will balance on the mounts - Chevy's will not. As you see there are several punched holes for the different types of mounts. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647824050 I bolted up the plate to the block with a pair of bolts, not all 4. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647824111 The ears were retained with a motor mount bolt, which will need to be longer to work. I put a thin washer in between the rear plate and lower mount to give about 0.075" slop on the ears during fitment. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647824151 |
Next comes the fun part.
I raised car as high as I could and still be able to lower the motor. I slowly lowered it till it sat roughly cradled in the V's formed by the ears. Fore/aft alignment was checked, as was side to side levelness and place a large framing square on the flywheel and gunsighted the differential so it was aligned longitudinally. After 20 minutes of fiddling I pronounce it ready and tack welded it. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647824764 As you see by the above pic, the ears rest on the clamshell's inner metal ears, as God and GM intended... https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647824796 Once that was done, the bolts, nuts and washers were pulled and the car lowered and the motor raised to clear the front with this being the result. I will weld it final, then bevel the inner ears and maybe open up the interface bolt holes for easier installation. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1647824899 |
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Since I cannot use the existing Z-bar I will need to mount a hydraulic master to operate the Howe hydraulic throw out bearing.
This is a pain in the ass with a vacuum booster so I will fit the car with a manual master. I did some research before and it boils down to this. The Mopar minivan master will work but requires the ears to have the holes moved outboard quite a bit. Best match is a 1" bore, while the Mopar unit has a 24mm (0.94") bore. We refitted a friend of mine's 68 FB with a 1969 type front disc and retained the stock drum manual master (1" bore). It worked very well. I looked at several masters - selecting the 1974-80 1/2 ton truck manual master. These come with a deep pocket for the push rod. https://www.rockauto.com/info/142/13...ngle__ra_p.jpg Unfortunately the later aluminum/plastic units do not; the rod is held with a rubber boot that does not seem to be available anywhere. Note how the manual master has the recess (1) for the boot - the power unit does not (2). https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1648429537 |
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I went to test fit the larger aluminum master and noted this: the studs are too short :confused:
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1648433510 Then I realized I needed to trim them years ago to make the power booster mount easier to attach. Dammit. So the panel brace will have to come out and the studs reworked. One just popped out, the second really put up a fight. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1648433521 Eventually the second one came out and new stainless bolts were welded into place. Not as nice as I would have liked but will work quite well. https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...1&d=1648433528 |
I converted my car to manual brakes many years ago. I went to 12" discs in front also. Love it! I used a Strange Engineering master. Similar to the one linked below. Not sure what bore diameter. I have it in my notes.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...iABEgI3xvD_BwE |
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