What will the new Pontiac Race motor look like?
 

This is Bob C. posting this. Not in anyway a Allpontiac comment or post.

I want this to be fair for all vendors not a one sided rule for any one vendor.


If we all can agree to talk about this:

(This just a start to open up what will be accepted as a Pontiac at a sanctioned Pontiac race so everyone will be on the same page and have the same rules and opportunity to be fair at an event)



All Allpontiac IA II motors will be sold as a replacement that every stock part will bolt on to every motor as before. It is just built like a brick crap house. It has all the up grades that fix the common problem with a stock motor and can take all the HP that most hard core racers can throw at it.

The IA IIR motors can be ordered with these options and still remain stock to the outside as a IA II STD motor if all agree.

Spread bore up to 4.750 center to center.
18 Head bolts per bank for the Tiger Head Cylinder Heads.
55 MM Cam bore
Lifter bushings
Smaller main bores
Modified oiling system
4.495 Bore
Modified Main webs made stronger
Moved Lifter bores to better line up the push rods
Dry Deck motor
Stronger valley area

The user could still bolt a stock head to the block anytime.
Bolt the stock water pump housing.
Use a stock crankshaft with a 3.00 inch main
Use stock motor mounts.
Stock oil pump and pan will bolt to the motor.
Stock Valley pan
Stock distributor
Stock Intake

So if a racer shows up with a motor that will not take a stock Pontiac parts and still work, it is not a Pontiac and can not enter a race as a Pontiac traditional design motor.


Any racer can build, bolt, modify, add any type of fuel system, Blower, EFI, Turbo, Nitro, NOS. and E87, If a billet block is machined in Aluminum it must be made to the outside design of the 455 Pontiac. Billet Heads have to be of a passed type design type.

Open for comments. And keep it civil please. Grown up conversations a must.

how much and when?

Mike,

When is a few weeks. Casting mods are in the works.

Price. TBD What you would expect to pay for a Merlin big M or a Dart block.

Well.....since i'm a big deal.....I'd get a discount. Just sayin..... LOL

JK

I've not reseached chevy part pricing lately so IDK

I like all of the updates. More power is always good. The ability to spread the bore centerline will most likely create the most discussion. Since I enjoy "Heads Up" racing, I have always believed that the stock bore center line has been the biggest factor at keeping HP per cu. in. in normally aspirated engines fairly close to equal. What is the potential increase in Hp per cu. in. if the maximum stock bore is 4.400 and the new bore is 4.500. As Robert requested for this thread I want to discuss only the potential change in power for bores up to 4.500

I would agree with everything Bob has written with one question. If one was to build a billit block within the Pontiac dimensions but with skirts and side bolts would that count? The argument would be that a stock pan couldn't fit but a pan wouldn't fit with a bolt on style skirt either.
SD

I am guessing some would want clarification about the billet heads that would be allowed. "based on a past design" ? Does that make Visners, CV-1's in billet form other canted valve heads, Warp 6 heads and varriants OK or not OK? My opinion here would be if it bolts to your IAII block or similar block it is OK.

The stronger lifter valley comment seems strange to me Isn't the area already an inch thick ??? have there been issues in that area ??? Also the list says smaller mains then goes on to say you can use a 3.00 main crank explain please.

Can the "Modified oiling system" be applied to existing IA-II's?

Curt,

I just wanted to throw in that our valley is casted differently then a stock motor and has larger ribs across it for added strength. The boss for the lifters are a little wider and may need a touch with a tool to clear a lifter bar depending on the brand of lifters.

There are many things that will/are changing with an IA IIR motor that we will not post due to letting other manufactures in on our changes. The ones I stated are visual changes. The others are changes that Dart and Merlin and Donovan block have in place. We have made engineering changes to the casting that make it even stronger. We are making a material changes to the better too.

As to the question about skirts. It is not me that will say what goes or does not. You the people will make that call. We just want the playing field to be fair.

If you can bolt on a skirt on, I say good. It is a mod to a block.

If you build a one off block that has skirts and a has a Hemi Crankshaft and has a 5.000 bore spacing and not one Pontiac part will bolt on it then is a experimental motor. So why not let a Merlin Big M with a Monster 600 cfm head run in the fastest class too. Just because a group can build a few one off motors and they tell nothing of what it is or what it has, does not make it a Pontiac.

May be we should have a class that does have that combo and make the races a show case and bring in other people to see us against them deal. Now that would make a event more exciting and bring more people to see that our stuff can and will kick there brand ass too. That is called growth, changing with the times, being pro active. What's the big deal? It's entertainment in the end.

No.

My SBC Dart block cost is well over 1000 bucks cheaper than your block price now. You are going to make things better and drop the price ??? I dont see that.

When we sell 300 a month. Sure.

How about the ability to move up to 60mm cams?

great post!!!! thanks for stepping things up!!!! Pontiac's best excitement is in the future!!!! ;) ;) ;) can't wait to see the cool stuff that will happen

This is me talking to Bob C. (and not All Pontiac):

Explain this more?

Sounds like you are advocating doing this?

:confused:

Remember keep it civil.

:)

The cost of tooling is the key question. But yes we can do 60mm.

JnB Machine who does our machining does 8 thousand blocks a year. They do all of Mercury marine in boards V8 and V6 motors, All of GM 572 blocks, All of the cylinder heads to for these motors. The have a 50 tapper Labond set up in a cell with our tooling in the cage and on machine pallets where a robot picks it up and brings it to the machine.

Look at this link: This is the machine we do our stuff on you will be impressed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv5OJIDiHrM#t=82

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlKSN08CxPA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5jSNHTOlEo



So many people window shop. They request products and services and never buy. We can afford to spend money in a wish.

John,

If the event promoter wants to add a class for this and other motors and style cars to race against the Pontiacs. I think it is a great idea. All out balls to the wall event,them against us deal. Why not? Raise a big pot money and bring in the fastest. A NHRA event style type of a event at a Pontiac race? Hell yes.

Isn't the Butler Frantic Four basically that, except for just Pontiacs?
How many racers enter that?

Also what kind of NHRA event are you wanting?
(Top Dragster? Top Alcohol Dragster? Pro Stock? Comp? Super Stock?)

:confused:

While I can see a mega Pontiac block would be nice, if we can't get what we have now running better, can't see it being any better with a 'bigger' block?

Just think of all those EHTTFMF guys having to throw away their junk and starting fresh?

:eek:

I think this is a great idea, but for me I would rather see a block that can handle 1000-1200 hp all day and be much cheaper! I think the customer base would be far higher then these all out max effort deals IMO

John,

Start another thread about racing.

This is about the changes that we will make if everyone is on board.

Not who will race what right now.

Rules to be fair that will still be called a Pontiac block is what this is about.

Looks like a lot of good updates potentially possible for the customer.

A better oiling system is always a good idea.

There will be differences what people desire (just like on any computer purchase).
Deal is you want the thing to perform (like a computer) BETTER vs the last one you bought.

So if you are stuck in a rut with a 286 style processor mentality, then stay where you are but don't pee in the other guys drink if he wants a new 5th generation Intel Core processor (2015 Model Year). And both fit in the same case. ;)

Tom V.

I see:

So really you meant ALL PONTIAC and not Bob C., huh?

:rolleyes:

But this is like we are the Apple computer and Bob C (AP) wants Microsoft stuff!

:eek:

Are you a slow learner John?

He said start your own thread.

Bob C wants Microsoft stuff but he is not asking for the latest CIA code breaking computer either. You are trying to pass off a Cray Computer as a Apple desktop Computer and think people are stupid enough not to notice.

Tom V.

A Cray compuer was a much larger "special cased" computer with special internals that the normal apple computer can not use.

Please stop both of you.

Thanks,

Carry on.

Based on our destructive testing, our wish for a better Pontiac block would include a larger diameter left-side oil gallery (hopefully 3/4") with a pre-tapped front feed port.

It would benefit blown alcohol and nitro applications that use lots of high viscosity oil. It would also benefit those who want to run really low pressure and can't tolerate much pressure loss from back to front of engine.

JMHO,
Eric

I must say it is entertaining when you pull your stupid out and put it on prominent display.


I'm not sure you even have to pull it out anymore, seems like it's just there all the time

What are the chamber size options on the cylinder heads?

Maybe you can explain how this isn't all about All Pontiac?

:eek:

Stick to subject please
 

Johnta and Tom, respectfully, please don't ruin this thread by chasing rabbits. I, and I'm sure others, are far more interested in learning about the new block offerings rather than seeing this clogged up with sidetrack postings.

X2:popcorn:

$2800 for a Dart Big M bare.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...0Bare%20Blocks

Dang it thats cheap.

No Worries Gary or Robert!

Tom V.

I like that...and if they can feed the drivers bank lifters from the front galley crossing over to passenger side galley or from passenger galley for that matter, it would feed the mains 1st.

Let me be more specific, can "ANY" of the oiling mods be applied to an existing IA-II?

He's a "big deal" alright! Wait till he calls you! Lol

Brian

A bigger motor that looks the same externally? Sounds good to me.

All IA II casting have the ability to add oil directly to the front main bearing thru the front passenger 1/8 NPT plug. Just take a look at the casting. You just install a 1/2 NPT tee to the out feed oil port and hook the line to this tee. Now you feed from the back and front of the main bearings.

The path of oil in all IA II blocks has been the mains bearings first and the driver lifter galley.

The change is a minor one that a builder would want that is trying to get the max out of our a motor.

Bob,

Do you see any changes to the casting process that can improve the casting quality as compared to the IA-II block?

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

Man I'm for it, As well as the IA II block has done against
The almighty fords and chevy's with it's perimeter limits
Like the first in the 4's in the 1/8 *I believe it'll be awesome.
And really have the other manufacturers nervous. JMO.

GT.

I am guessing you guys have already looked at this, but you mentioned a smaller main housing bore. Some current top fuel/funny car engines are running as small as 2.5" main bearings!. 2.750" is typical and considered kind of old school. So 8000 HP is OK on that small of a main bearing. I hope the new block can go that small and the saddles for #4 and #5 main designed to use a common available bearing and seal. I know you guys have the bases covered, just making a GREAT block even better. Just think how much stronger the block would be without those giant housing bores. The reduction in bearing speed would be huge too.

The priority mains philosophy is important if you have restrictive passages that cause significant pressure drops along the way. Then it's important for the mains to have first crack at the oil (from the zone of highest pressure).

On the other hand, if the internal passages are large enough that the pressure drops are minimized, then it becomes a true parallel feed system and the flow circuit in the Pontiac block works well.

Eric

I'm looking at it from a what if you eject a lifter or two on the driver side perspective. That is a potential big bleed from the circuit feeding the mains. If ALL lifters are all fed last the mains would be less affected.

An alternative to a larger single feed driver side galley, both lifter galleys could be at size they are now, but tied to rear feed passage with feeds to mains from BOTH sides. The front crossover could be kept pretty much the same size and only the rear crossover/feed passage enlarged to .75".
Two 1/2" passages are equal to a single .707" passage in flow area. (Seeing that most race builds restrict lifter feed considerably anyway, perhaps a lifter ejection isnt going to bleed off too much oil.)

As a side note the main feeds could also be made progressively(or selectively) larger as you move forward in the block vs adding plumbing to feed from both ends.

Is the longer cylinder issue being addressed,either on the upper or lower side? Or is it Irrelevant?
It seemed to be a issue in another thread,kind of surprised no one has said anymore about it.

The new changes look good.

Good discussion. We've always restricted the lifter feeds and never had a lifter eject so that isn't a prime worry.

The idea of feeding both galleries and drilling both of them down to the mains would be the ultimate in great oiling for the mains!!

Eric

You want the block better? Start with copping darts oiling, use better material, dont have it hold 55 gal of water, make cylinders longer! , and dont have them machined where you do now. Just my 2 cents. And put more material at the back of block ar cam area for 60 + mm

All IA II motors come with the lifer bore oil feed holes tapped 1\4-20 thread. You install a set screw with a .035 drll hole in it. This controls how much oil gets to the lifter. If you totaly loose a lifter, it does not matter. The main bearings see the same amount of oil pressure. So the first oil from the oil pump goes stright to the main bearings and a small amount goes to the driver side lifters. The oil pass around the crankshaft bearings and pass up to the other side to feed the passenger lifters only. So how can you make that better?

And yes we are making the cylinders longer with other changes to make it sronger too.

Perhaps if its all in one post it will make more sense???
So here they are with emphasis on whats important and maybe answers your question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...s/viewpost.gif An alternative to a larger single feed driver side galley, both lifter galleys could be at size they are now, but tied to rear feed passage with feeds to mains from BOTH sides. The front crossover could be kept pretty much the same size and only the rear crossover/feed passage enlarged to .75". Two 1/2" passages are equal to a single .707" passage in flow area. (Seeing that most race builds restrict lifter feed considerably anyway, perhaps a lifter ejection isnt going to bleed off too much oil.) As a side note the main feeds could also be made progressively(or selectively) larger as you move forward in the block vs adding plumbing to feed from both ends.

Quote:

The idea of feeding both galleries and drilling both of them down to the mains would be the ultimate in great oiling for the mains!! Eric