PY Online Forums - Bringing the Pontiac Hobby Together - 1967 Pontiac 428 ci Block" Build or not to Build", Myself?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MatthewKlein (Post 6476579)

It's all part of the charm. I get a kick out of his replies.

Mikes reply:

I have never had to do so much writing and as an artist, I like to be original and unique in my style. Granted, I will never win the Pulitzer Prize, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgarblik (Post 6476445)

I see you have a "Chevy" book you referred to in a post. I would still recommend a Pontiac specific rebuild book like the Rocky Rotella book. Great resource. Engine family specific. Your machine shop should be capable of machining away the knurl they put in the original valve guides. If they didn't crack the guides trying to knurl them, new thin wall bronze liners can be installed. Low cost and easy to do.

Mikes reply:

Excuse me if I am wrong, I thought that the original valve guides in my motor were part of the Head itself and that when the Head mechanic knurled them it was directly to the holes drilled in the Heads valve guide area?

In other words, I was under the impression that the factory Heads never came with guides stock, that that is an aftermarket thing to do?

Correct me if you will, please.

P.S. I only read the "how to build a small Block Chevy" and am going by memory.

I do have the 1967 service manual on disc and a Chilton's book, plus information in my archives to help in the build. There are videos and tons of info. from the various forums if needed. I research as I build and measure twice and cut once. Butler performance sells a kit with everything that I need and I will be getting their input as well. I am tempted to take a ride to Georgia, it has been some time since I took a road trip. I have yet to search my area for a competent Pontiac Machine shop.

As far as the Heads go, to the shop that did the original work they go. I told him to remanufacture the Heads as they did from the factory, the only thing he skimped on was the Exhaust Boss (cut back) and seal correctly. He owes me that and I will remind him that was the original plan, he took advantage of my lack of knowledge and I will remind him of that. OfCourse, I will get the price to install the Brass valve guides first.

Save yourself a lot of headache & heartache, pick up Rocky Rotella’s how to rebuild a Pontiac book in the very least. I know from your previous threads you like to over analyze these things but at least arm yourself with a good foundation whether you do the build yourself or work with a machine shop. Rocky’s book is required reading for anyone looking to build or pay someone to build a Pontiac motor IMO.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Rebuild-P...ps%2C95&sr=8-6

All heads have valve guides, its what seals the valve stem and is different material than just raw cast iron from a hole drilled in the head. New valve liners as mentioned above would fix the knurled guide issue... however I have owned budget rebuilt engines with knurled guides and seen countless others that went 10s of thousands of miles with no issues. But new guides or liners are the better option.

ANY reputable/competent machine shop can build a pontiac or any other make engine, doesnt need to be a "pontiac machine shop." There are only a couple things specific to pontiacs, like the rear galley oil plug, the principals for building the engine are no different than any other brand. Might save you some time & frustration asking shops if they are a pontiac machine shop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff R (Post 6475401)

Engine building involves close attention to detail, careful parts selection, and exact precision, at least if you want it to lead a long healthy life.

Right to start with assume nothing. Those heads that you had done aren't going to make the grade so plan on stripping them completely down and having a full set of guides put in them and new one piece valves, springs, etc. You can retain the Pontiac retainers and locks, nothing out there is any better and most of the aftermarket stuff considerably heavier.

Toss that POS low end 3 keyway timing chain set in the nearest dumpster as well.

I'd re-use the crank and outfit the engine with a good set of forged rods and modern forged pistons (all installed in the correct direction and orientation). Modern forgings with the right alloy can be run nearly as tight as cast pistons and you get better ring packs, much stronger parts and full floating so you don't have to "cook" the rods to press the pins in place.

I'd stick with a flat tappet cam but insist on USA made lifters. If Comp is DLC coating them even better. The last couple of flat tappet engines I did here used camshafts that I sent out to be "coated". It's an ion-bond process and they come back looking like black chrome plated. Without any oil at all they claim lubricity equivalent to using 5W-30 motor oil. In any case it's cheap insurance and for a couple of hundred bucks that it costs, if nothing else, you'll sleep better at night.

Plan on balancing the spinning assembly, and decking and squaring the block. Measure the bore and locate good pistons in the desired over-bore size. During that deal establish tight quench (.035-.040") and the true static compression ratio so you can make the right cam choice so it runs fine on this new fuel.

I've done more of these engines than most who will read this, and push for higher compression which makes more power at every RPM and allows for more camshaft with less negatives, so NOT part of the "lowering compression for pump gas then turn right around and install some short seat timing fancy whiz-bang lobe profile Cam to get some of the lost power back" crowd.

Like your way too long running thread on the FUBAR'D engine still sitting between the fenders you'll get a LOT of advice. Mine is simple and aside from a few upgrades with better rods/pistons/ring pack I'd keep it simple and fairly close to "stock" in many areas.

I am NOT a big fan of roller rocker arms and have found most to be nothing but pieces of bovine excrement so stick with stock stamped steel with solid balls in them for most "mild" builds done here. If you go to the aftermarket, the only ones I'd endorse are Crane Gold Race (not even sure if you can get them these days), Harland Sharp or Crower Enduro. ALL the others that I've tried have failed, someplace in long term service. Ya, I know, lots of folks use all sorts of these imported junk Rockers w/o issues, but at my shop, I've had issues with everything that isn't listed above.

I think that what we see with the engine building experience is that few of these rebuilt engines see very much actual time driving them, these days. Most owners take them out on a few nice Sunday afternoons, for a burger and a coke, maybe hit a local Dairy Queen, car cruise once or twice and might stop by their local track, a couple of Friday evenings for a "test and tune" session. A reality check is in order, there for evaluating parts. Driving a mere 300 miles a year vs several thousand or more won't tell you if parts that you used, makes the grade.

Not only did I build engines for almost half a Century, I've had scores of them driven (usually limped up here), towed, trailered and dragged up here with issues, right after "fresh" engine installs, but "NOTHING" was working well. So, I get to see problems at a user level and see what happens when poor choices are made with lack of attention to detail, using crappy parts and poor attempts at establishing optimum timing with poor fuel curves, that otherwise would insure a good end result.

In any case after many years of your engine not making the grade with multiple unsuccessful attempts to get it up to par, it's certainly time to remove it from the vehicle, open up the wallet and give it the time and attention it desperately needs.......IMHO......

Mikes reply:

Our goal is to pull out the 1967 Pontiac 428 ci HO with a 1966 Tri-power Intake and Rochester Carbs. this weekend, we are putting the last coats of black paint on the modified Hoist from Harbour freight. So many decisions to contemplate here, once I micrometer the Engine, we all will know more of what direction to take, with this tired Timepiece.

I believe that I can depend on Butler performance to sell me a complete rebuild kit, using the parts that they suggest, this way there won't be any excuse for using faulty parts that fail, before their time.

I would like to use all the parts that I have purchased over the past ten years, as this is a light build, If I want Real HP, I just assume start from scratch, using the amalgamation of aftermarket parts, that are specific to Pontiac, starting with a KRE Block, for example.

I have no problem with an over bore with new Pistons and Rods and all new bearings plus a rear main seal. I want to keep every other part that I have invested in over the years including the Harmonic Balancer and Flexplate that I just replaced.

The Heads are going back to receive the Brass Valve guides plus the exhaust Valve bosses will be cut back and properly sealed, for a complete long-lasting proper overall remanufactured Head job. I told the rebuilder that he should shim the springs for even spring pressure. This way when I do decide to sell this motor, I will undoubtedly know it is built correctly. I will install the engine in this vehicle and test and tune it to perfection, I might as well do that at the Track. That will be a new experience for me, I believe that I might even like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 67Lemons (Post 6476668)

Save yourself a lot of headache & heartache, pick up Rocky Rotella’s "how to rebuild a Pontiac" book, at the very least. I know from your previous threads that you like to over analyze things, but at least arm yourself with a good foundation, whether you actually build the motor yourself or let a machine shop build the short Block for you. Rocky’s book is required reading for anyone looking to build their own motor or pay a machinist to build it for them.

https://www.amazon.com/How-Rebuild-P...ps%2C95&sr=8-6

Mikes Reply:

I just got through purchasing the "How to build a Pontiac Engine, book" by Rocky Rotella. It has been a long time since I picked up a book, I would say that the last time was when I took the Drafting course at Atlantic Voc-tech in Coconut Creek Fla. in the late 90's, approx.

Lou, is outside setting the engine Hoist up for tomorrow afternoons lift, while we uncouple the Th 400 Trans. from the motor first and lower it onto the motorcycle jack that doubles for a Trans. jack, in our case. I still need to research an engine stand-motor mount to stand, that went missing some time ago?

You said:

"I know from your previous threads, that you like to over analyze things".

Mikes reply:

I am a deep thinker at times, that is because I have had to solve each and every dam problem on this second-hand project, that has become a nightmare. From Pistons installed backwards, Rod orientated wrong, plus all the other wrong issues my predecessor created for me to fix, over the last ten years, as if I did not have enough to do already!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012 (Post 6476764)

This way when I do decide to sell this motor ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRADERMIKE 2012 (Post 6476401)

... lightly build this motor and sell it ...

If your ultimate goal is to sell this motor, just stop the build right now. The people wanting those engine numbers are nowhere near as plentiful as you might imagine. And "built by mike and his roommate" is not something that will add value. Even if the stars align, you aren't going to recoup what you spend building it. Even if it hasn't been fired. Tested and tuned is a fancy way of saying "used engine".

IMO, you're best off selling as it is right now, standard bore and ready to build (sell the used 041 separately). Buy the KRE and be dollars ahead.

Extended one ton engine hoist? :doh:

If you have not read a book since the freaking 90s AND you need a book to rebuild a Pontiac............... SELL IT.
Let someone do it right that wants to do it right. Do not waste precious cylinder bore on something you plan on selling.
Here is how it works with Pontiacs, you build the engine and they are worth less than it cost you to build it by far !
Unless you are a pro and have your own equipment, and you are neither its a losing deal.
I could probably sell my new engine for 7-8K. It cost me 12-15 K to build the thing ! Maybe more.
And grown men, roommates ? ??
KRE block ? Good luck finding any new iron aftermarket block these days. You will find 5000$ aluminum blocks.

Smart move buying Rocky’s book. It’ll be big help after reading help on you deciding to build or just sell.

When Mike finds out how much needs to be done to a aftermarket block he might want to reconsider.Tom

I think the cost alone of an aftermarket block will shy most Pontiac people away.

Just build what ya got Mike, keep it and enjoy it. If done properly it should provide years of fun.

Rebuilding an engine yourself with intentions of selling is about the worst financial decision one could make. To anyone else it would just be another 50 year old engine that isn't worth anymore than a bare block.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formulajones (Post 6477049)

I think the cost alone of an aftermarket block will shy most Pontiac people away.

Just build what ya got Mike, keep it and enjoy it. If done properly it should provide years of fun.

Rebuilding an engine, yourself with intentions of selling is about the worst financial decision one could make. To anyone else, it would just be another 50-year-old engine, that isn't worth any more than a bare block.

Mikes reply:

On that note, I have to ask this: With the costs of a complete overhaul, would you tend to build to the max. Bore because the cost difference between the next size Bore parts like Forged Pistons and rods is not that far from the cost of a max. Bore Piston and Rods?

I realize that going up in bore will cost more because of the additional costs of a Cam, lifters and Valve springs and possibly Aluminum Heads.

But this question addresses larger Bore without the extras, I just want the cubes now and later I could upgrade at will, over time?

Don’t bore your block to the maximum oversize unless it’s warranted because of bore wear. Cylinder thickness is more important than going another .020” or .030” in bore size which really buys you only a few extra cubic inches.

To go big in this instance the best way is to replace the 4.00” stroke 428 crank with a 4.21” stroke 455 crank or perhaps a 4.25” aftermarket crank.

Boring your 428 to the max while keeping the stock 4.00” crank gets you 440 cubic inches at most at .060” over, so only 12 cubes gained by maxing out the bore.

Going to the 455 crank gets you 455 cubes at a reasonable .030” bore or 462 at .060” over on a 428 block.

Again I would never bore any block to the maximum size unless absolutely necessary.

Definitely 4.25 aftermarket stroke crank is the way to go. Just a .030 over bore, or what ever is next size pistons. Actually your better off just buying a complete Assembly from Butler thats all balance. Then would just have to have it bored.

PS: what are heads thats on it now, May have been mentioned just don’t remember seeing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b-man (Post 6477068)

Don’t bore your block to the maximum oversize unless it’s warranted because of bore wear. Cylinder thickness is more important than going another .020” or .030” in bore size which really buys you only a few extra cubic inches.

To go big in this instance the best way is to replace the 4.00” stroke 428 crank with a 4.21” stroke 455 crank or perhaps a 4.25” aftermarket crank.

Boring your 428 to the max while keeping the stock 4.00” crank gets you 440 cubic inches at most at .060” over, so only 12 cubes gained by maxing out the bore.

Going to the 455 crank gets you 455 cubes at a reasonable .030” bore or 462 at .060” over on a 428 block.

Again, I would never bore any block to the maximum size unless absolutely necessary.

Mikes reply:

Good to know, in order to make an intelligent decision.

Be aware, see my last Thread: "Th 400 Pontiac Transmission build or not to build myself", see # 96-110 posts, that I accidentally posted there, they should be here.

Also, in the past the posts that I have been involved in, whether I originated them or just were involved in, used to post to my email, they are "not" today, I want to know why? Moderator, please look into the reason for that.

Nobody is receiving email notifications from the PY forums right now due to some technical issues that have yet to be resolved so let’s leave it at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gach (Post 6477073)

Definitely 4.25 aftermarket stroke crank is the way to go. Just a .030 over bore, or whatever is next size pistons. Actually you're better off just buying a complete Assembly from Butler, that's all been balanced. Then you would just have to Bore the cyl.

PS: what are heads that's on it now, May have been mentioned, just don’t remember seeing it.

Mikes reply:

Pontiac originally took the 428 ci Block and Bored it .030" and added the 455 Crank to make a 455 ci motor. Then I like that idea. Everyone knows the 455 ci motor is considered to be a square engine, with lots of torque, rite out of the Pontiac factory. Coupled with the forged Crank, Pistons and Rods, let's spend Mikes money logically. Now, I can claim a homemade Super Duty (455 SD).

As far as the Heads are concerned, they go back to the Mechanic that did the original work and I get him to install the correct Brass valve Guides and have him cut back the exhaust Boss per valve as I paid him to do in the past that he weaseled out of, by taking advantage of my lack of knowledge...

I could home port the existing Heads to Intake manifolds by using the gaskets as a template and the same to the existing Head exhaust to Header. I won't touch the inside for Pontiac finished these areas from the factory. I will work with the Head mechanic by letting him dismantle the Heads, then I do my work and let him finish, just like I did when I performed the 421 and Pontiac cooling mods.

This build leaves me with enough room to grow in the future, where I could add Aluminum Heads, Roller Rockers, Roller Lifters, Push Rods to suit, Billet timing Gears, conical springs etc...

So, new rings, rear main seal, gasket set, I should be able to use the Head gasket that I just bought.

About the balanced Crank thing, I just bought the Harmonic balancer and Flexplate, that is externally balanced, so I will stick with Pontiac factory method. However, Butler had said that the Harmonic Balancer and Flexplate were zero balanced, maybe I can use them after all. I want to keep my Johnson Lifters and HD push Rods as well. In the future, over the next ten years, I can play with modifications, just as I did with the last ten years. Not having to worry about spinning a Bearing, as I most likely did, by building an entire top end of a motor, without building the lower end, at the same time. I can't tell you how many times I have heard of that scenario, playout.

Then it's a keeper, that solves that issue, all I need to know is how much it costs in parts. Let the machine shop do what they do and find out how much I could save by building the motor myself. Is the guarantee by allowing a shop to build this short Block enough to persuade Mike to let them build it?

There are 1967 D-port "067" Heads, remanufactured and "off" the motor, at this time.

I’m guessing your rods are cast rods, which would explain ( if it’s ) I spun bearing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by b-man (Post 6477077)

Nobody is receiving email notifications from the PY forums right now due to some technical issues that have yet to be resolved so let’s leave it at that.

Mikes reply:

OK with me, it is easier to enter Threads the other way, can't wait until they resolve the issue.

Here’s what your looking at if its a spun bearing. Cost wise, having rods resized new rod bolts and possibly having the crank turn .010 under. Not really that expensive ordeal.