[geekwagon]

So I have an odd story to tell and questions I am trying to understand in a bizarre situation that happened yesterday. While it was scary and hilarious...maybe my stupidity saves injury/damage to others.

So about 10 years ago I bought a 67 tempest wagon. Had it all ripped apart and put a nice 455, suspension, trans, etc. Spent a ton of $$$ on it. Then life hit - baby, wife, etc. So it sat for years....sometimes outside exposed. About a year ago I got back into it but couldnt get it started due to it sitting and my lack of knowledge of what could be the issue.

So fast forward to this week. Spent a day or so going through everything. Items that were replaced were fuel pump, carb, distributor, wires, and plugs. I was getting backfires through the carb and seemed to have been a timing issue or the way I had been wiring the cap. So I tried several things - run gas off a 5 gallon can, new fuel filters, etc but still backfiring. I removed all wires, plugs, distributor and found tdc. Also checked for good spark. Put it all back together and this is where the bizarre incident happened.

At this point the battery was low due to so many tries cranking it. I decided to jump it off my truck so I had the truck perpendicular to the wagon. Wagon has no glass in it so I just stick my hand through the windshield area to turn the key. Why? Good question. I should have been sitting in the seat but the way I parked made it difficult to open the wagon door. Huge mistake. So at this point, i had totally disconnected the fuel line from the 5 gallon can and had sprayed in some starting fluid in carb. There probably was a bunch of gas already inside due to the many times I tried to start it. One thing I wanted to mention is that the shifter was odd after sitting for so long. It would be in park...the car would crank. Move it to neutral..would not start. Moved it to drive...no start as expected. So I moved it to the top into park.. or what I assumed was park. I bet you see where this is going...literally.

So the dumbass I am... I am outside of the wagon with my truck to my right. The jumper cables connected from wagon to truck. I stick my hand in and turn the key. Holy moses..it starts! Been trying to get it to start for so long. In a split second...my joy over it starting turns to horror as the wagon starts moving. Basically like when you put in in drive with no foot on brake. Yelling Oh S#&t! repeatedly and trying to dig my heels into the ground pulling in the opposite direction, the wagon is on a course for a fence and a 20 foot dropoff. I somehow jumped into the car through windshield and turned the key off. Still going!! Then about 2 feet away from the fence, the car stops! After checking for all body parts...i try to figure out what the heck happened.

Now.. after all that I find much humor in this idiotic scenario but see how bad my choices were. Obviously I should have been behind the wheel and this most likely would have turned out differently. But I have many questions:

1. How did the car move if it was supposedly in park? If it was in drive, how could it even start?

2. Why did turning the key not shut it down...assuming since it was jumped to truck which still gave it power/12v?

3. How did it drive with no gas line attached..assume it must have had enough in the line/filter/carb/intake?

4. Did wagon stop because the jumper cables came off, the negative cable of the wagon came off or it ran out of usable gas.

While these may be basic questions, i would like to know specifically.

While you may find this funny.. I hope my stupid decisions prevent anyone from doing them. I guess I was lazy to have to get in the car and did it from the outside. Wont happen again.

Thanks

GP

[Icefan71]

Glad you are OK. I had a similar incident with a run away car. I backed a car up onto a set of ramps with the front to rear brake line disconnected. A BAD decision cost me a trip to the hospital and a few days off work.
I don't know why your car started if it wasn't in park or why it wouldn't shut off. Check the ignition switch and neutral safety switch.

[rohrt]

An automatic trans should have a locking pin when in park that would keep it from moving. Are you able to roll the car when in park? Is the linkage off and its really in reverse?

If you still have a coil/points setup I would be checking the coil for voltage when the key is off.

Car will still run for a while with gas in the carb. How long depends on the engine and the amount of fuel held in the float bowl.

It may have run out of gas in the carb or if there is something wired wrong it could have been the battery cables.

I would work on question 1 before moving on to the others.

[Sirrotica]

The neutral safety switch on the column was in the correct position for the engine to start, however the linkage from the column to the transmission shift arm either was not adjusted properly, or disconnected from the shift arm on the side of the transmission.

To be in a safe position to start without drive away, the neutral safety switch and the linkage must be in synchronization. The safety switch does not know the position of the shift arm in the transmission, unless the linkage is hooked up and adjusted properly. This is the only plausible situation if the safety switch has not had the wiring bypassed and is operational as it should be.

It will run for maybe 30 seconds on the fuel in the float bowl, I imagine it ran out of fuel and shut off.

The starter solenoid bypasses the ignition switch on starting to supply 12 volts to the points, with a low battery condition the solenoid can weld the contacts inside the solenoid together and when the starter is still engaged it's still feeding the points 12 volts. This is most likely why turning the key off didn't kill the ignition. You don't have this bypass circuit on GM electronic systems although chrysler used it for awhile and ford quit using it with their electronic systems. The only way to stop this phenomenon is to jerk a cable off the battery. Upon re-connecting the battery the contacts in the solenoid may have released after the current is removed, or they may still be stuck which will provide a rather large spark when connected. You will again have the starter cranking and 12 volts feeding the points if the starter solenoid contacts are still stuck.

I hope that answers your question.

[pfilean]

Not sure when you were spending a ton of $$$ on it if you were doing the work or paying to have it done. But whichever there is obviously, as suggested, a miss-adjustment between the between the shift indicator, the neutral safety switch and the transmission. Not unexpected as with the change to a 455 there was also probably a change in transmission. And if you turn of the key and still have a running engine the power to the ignition must not be cut off by the switch. Check the power to the ignition. Did the change in engine also bring on a change to HEI ignition. Doing a quick rewire to get that hooked up could bring on the problem.

Now I'll tell my stupidity story. Few years back my 97 GP had brake calipers and rotors getting a little rusty and looking bad through my chrome wheels. Yuck. So I proceed to repaint them. Also needed new front pads so I needed to get the brake pistons pushed back in the cylinders. Jack the car up and put in neutral so I can turn the rotors as I proceed to replace the pads and paint calipers and rotors (yeah I did a lot of masking to stop the overspray). Get done, take car off jack stands, get in and start engine. Pull the shift lever back ONE notch thinking I'm going into reverse. But I was in neutral already so it was drive. By the time I get the brake pistons pumped up so they will work I'm into my work bench. OH -****.

[geekwagon]

Remember that the jumper cables were still on while it was driving away connected to my truck. Since it happened so fast, i am trying to figure what actually killed the motor. Since the jumper cables got basically ripped off as it drove away and with it the negative cable came off the wagon's battery...im trying to see if one of those killed it, or it ran out of gas. I know for sure the key to OFF did nothing but thats probably due to it being jumped to my truck.

Once i know that I will go further. The whole shifter (his/hers) is all rusted in there so Im sure it adds proof to your insight above. Something is not aligned.

thanks!

[72projectbird]

It was trying to get away from you!

I've seen this happen to stick cars that don't have the clutch disengage switch installed, and someone goes to start the car while its in gear and the clutch isn't depressed. That'll scare the crap out of whoever is in the car!

[Ollie]

Always Block the wheels .

[geekwagon]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

It was trying to get away from you!

I've seen this happen to stick cars that don't have the clutch disengage switch installed, and someone goes to start the car while its in gear and the clutch isn't depressed. That'll scare the crap out of whoever is in the car!

I bet it was..dragged her all over the eastern USA.

First rule...dont start the car unless you are in it!


Kevin

[Garry Sr]

One time they took a brinks truck in at work, I tried to tell them the truck was to heavy to lift on a single post but greed got the best of them. Anyway, I'm standing under the truck with my boss showing him something and the truck starts shifting off the hoist... In the blink of an eye I'm standing on the other side of the shop looking at my boss, he's still standing under the truck but he's got his hands raised in the air like he's superman or some ****... Damned lucky that truck didn't come down all the way, he would have been a pancake.

[TheCirque]

I watched a guy zip ty the throttle open on a snowmobile carb while working on it at the trail head parking lot. He got it back together, didn't remove zip-ty, started it.

We figured it was doing about 50mph when it hit the cement ditch bank across the parking lot and exploded. It was raining plastic pieces!

How it missed all the trucks and trailers in the lot I'll never understand.

I'm not sure the exact moment when life threatening danger and stupidity becomes comedy.... But it does.

[geekwagon]

now that is crazy...

I told my story over the phone to my wife... who went through 4 "no it didnt's" to hysterical laughter and asked if I happened to get it on video. nice...

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by geekwagon

now that is crazy...

I told my story over the phone to my wife... who went through 4 "no it didnt's" to hysterical laughter and asked if I happened to get it on video. nice...

...you told your WIFE?!?

[carbking]

1. How did the car move if it was supposedly in park? If it was in drive, how could it even start?

2. Why did turning the key not shut it down...assuming since it was jumped to truck which still gave it power/12v?

3. How did it drive with no gas line attached..assume it must have had enough in the line/filter/carb/intake?

4. Did wagon stop because the jumper cables came off, the negative cable of the wagon came off or it ran out of usable gas.

(1) As others have mentioned, misalignment - FIX THIS FIRST!

(2) The ignition switch is probably defective. This is easy to check with some basic electrical test gear. - CHECK AND FIX THIS SECOND!

(3) Enough fuel in the bowl to run several seconds

(4) Probably ran out of gas. Once started, it would run on the alternator if a defective ignition switch did not shut off the ignition.

(5) Consider notifying your neighbors the next time you attempt to start this thing

Jon.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Had a Q-JET Secondary Throttle plate let go. Felt like 400+HP with the throttle closed!

Over-powered the Brakes, dowshifting NFG made it worse. turned the key off to avoid a catastrophee. That was 29 years ago HIS

[NeighborsComplaint]

Ignition switch is between the battery and the car's starter and ignition system. You jump the the battery and you are just putting 12V into the battery. You still should be able to shut off the motor from the switch with the jumper cables attached. Under normal circumstances, you leave the cables connected with the switch off for a while to allow the discharged batter to recharge a bit before attempting to start the car.

Your ignition switch may be improperly wired with 12V still going to the coil in the off position. That is the only way it would continue to run with the switch off.

Be thankful you weren't in a garage between the car and the back garage wall.

[goatwgn]

Years ago I was helping a freind fix up a '68 GTO convertible. We had it parked at an angle in a barn converted into a shop with a concrete floor and a single garage door. He went to pull it out one day, (it had the drivetrain in it and running, but had no interior yet). I had the steering wheel just sitting on the column where I was replacing the turn signal switch, and it wasnt the wheel we were going to use. He sit on his left ankle due to seats not being in the car. He held on to the wheel, started it and put it in gear. He hit the gas, and then he fell on his back laying in the floor with the steering wheel in his hand. the car took out the framing around the garage door and came to a halt. Hardly did any damage to the car. Good design on those old "Enduro" bumpers. Did put a small dent in the RF fender. Thankfully this was before the car was painted. Was a hair raising experience for him though, and me as well, because I was watching it all happen in a split second.

[428GTO70]

I seem to remember a similar problem of not being able to shut a car down if the alternator is wired incorrectly with a points distributor. Something about the alternator charge back feeding to the coil and keeping it running? I may have that wrong a bit but it was something like that.

[Sirrotica]

If the solenoid contacts weld together and keep the starter engaged (which I've seen happen more than once with a discharged battery) drawing high amperage in the case of severe cold weather or timing too far advanced (the OP already said he was having problems with timing and/or firing order). Anything that makes the starter draw very high amperage. The 12 volt bypass wire from the starter will keep feeding the ignition even with the switch turned off because the starter stays engaged. The only way to stop this is to pull a battery cable off, which the OP said did happen as the jumper cables yanked it off.

I'll bet there isn't anything wrong with the wiring or the switch and if the starter solenoid contacts un-welded themselves by the solenoid return spring pulling them apart after the cable came off, the possibility of it happening again is slim to none. In all but one case where I've seen this happen the solenoid spring is strong enough to pull the welded contacts apart once the battery cable is removed and the heat goes out of the copper contacts.

Conditions to make this happen have to all be right and I've only seen it happen maybe 3-4 times. the common denominator though is a discharged battery either being jumped from another vehicle or a large battery charger, and an engine that is cranking over slowly because of a tuning problem (running up against timing), or frigid weather. It usually takes two sources of power to have enough amps to weld the copper contacts together. All the symptoms were there to make it happen from the OPs account.

If he hooks it all back up and the ignition works fine with the switch, chances are this is what happened.

This happens more frequently in diesels as most already have 2 batteries and they crank over harder than most any gas engines do anyway, but I've also seen it happen in gas vehicles also.

[hada76]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

I've seen this happen to stick cars that don't have the clutch disengage switch installed

ah, the good ol days