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#1
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Stock Appearing 400
In the process of building a stock appearing 400 with 48 heads for my '69 GTO. Heads have been gasket matched and cleaned up, steel factory intake with Quadrajet using Cliff's #2 recipe. Compression will be 9.5 using dished pistons and HO exhuast. 4 speed with 3.23 weekend driver.
I want more cam than the 068 and considering a Summit 2802. I know this subject has been beat to death but what would be the best cam choice other than the 2802 for this set up? |
#2
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I have a similar setup to you, except I have an auto with 3.55s. I ran a Crower 60916 for a number or years but I was never really happy with it. At the end of the day I don't think my combo was really well matched for that cam.
I went looking for something with better lower end and the Lunati Voodoo 10510702 came recommended. I'm in the middle of installing one right now so I can't comment on how it compares, but it might be another option for you. Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/268 Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 219/227 Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .468/.489 LSA/ICL: 112/108 RPM Range: 1300-5500
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Ken '68 GTO - 464 - Ram Air II heads - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
The Following User Says Thank You to Verdoro 68 For This Useful Post: | ||
#3
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I'm running that Lunati cam with 3.23 in my '79 tran am. It's definitely not a disappointing setup. Just purchased a kit from Cliff.
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#4
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I would certainly recommend a VooDoo cam also. I would go with the next one up. #10510703. It has 227/233 @ .050 and will be perfect for the 4 speed and 3.23 gears.
Here's a link to it. Notice the broad power band. 1600-5800 RPM. http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1776&gid=287
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Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
#5
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I was tempted to go with the '703, but I wussed out and went with the '702.
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Ken '68 GTO - 464 - Ram Air II heads - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#6
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Your far better off in view of your cars rear gearing to bowl port your heads for greater power instead of stuffing in a larger cam.
installing 1.65 rockers will gain you 4 degrees more over the nose duration for greater power with no change in idle factors, not to mention the rockers added lift which will add 10 CFM worth of flow on both ends of the head. The 068 cam will let you run the 1.65 rockers with the stock valve spring installed height,that being said be sure either way you go to replace your valve springs and to have the valve guides cut for positive seals.
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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs! And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs! 1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set. Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks. 1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes. Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph. Education is what your left with once you forget things! |
The Following User Says Thank You to steve25 For This Useful Post: | ||
#7
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Quote:
looking forward to hearing your reviews on this cam, as im seriously considering it for my 400 build--thanks gtofreek!!!! |
#8
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I had a 220/224 Comp hyd roller in my 400 with mildy ported 48 heads. Mine was a t400 with 3.55 gears. It would do a low 13 quarter @ 106mph on old Radial T/A's.
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frittering and wasting the hours in an off hand way.... 1969 GTO, 455ci, 230/236 Pontiac Dude's "Butcher Special" Comp hyd roller cam with Crower HIPPO solid roller lifters, Q-jet, Edelbrock P4B-QJ, Doug's headers, ported 6X-8 (97cc) heads, TKO600, 3.73 geared Eaton Tru-Trac 8.5", hydroboost, rear disc brakes......and my greatest mechanical feat....a new heater core. |
#9
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Just a note on this topic. IF you are going to run dished pistons in the 400 engines, then the larger camshafts on wider LSA's aren't going to be the best choice. Switching to a cam with less seat timing, and less overlap will pull the power down and make the engine a lot more responsive in the "normal" driving range. In other words it's going to "feel" snappier, and pull harder down where the engine spends most of it's time. The larger cams on wider LSA's are going to "feel" flat, soggy, etc until you get the rpm's up some. Higher compression corrects that issue about the same way installing a shorter seat timing cam does.
I would also note here that you MUST degree the Crower cams for best results. They typically come in around 112-113ICL dot to dot. I can't remember installing one yet that didn't need at least 4 degrees advance to get it down to 108-109ICL.......Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
#10
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Stock Appearing 400
I knew the dished pistons would create some needed adjustment over an off he shelf cam.
Cliff, Which Crower Cam would you recommend and what ICL would you shoot for? |
#11
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My original 71' 400 is at 9.6:1 CR. Original Q-jet,stock intake,cleaned up 96 heads,2 1/2" RARE manifolds,Original points dizzy,M-20,3.90's,but I had the original 3.23's in when I put my cam in.
I went with the Crower 60242(similar to the 916),and I think it runs great. Track times in my sig. If I was not granny shifting the original M-20,the ET would be a lot lower.
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‘63 LeMans- ‘69 400 w/ original transaxle. 2.69 gears. ‘55 Catalina ‘62 Mercury Meteor-all original, bought new by my grandfather 71' GTO -original 400/4-speed/3.23 posi 13.95 @ 102.1 on street tires @ 4055lbs.-now my sons ride |
#12
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Quote:
I don't use many Crower cams, but people seem to like them also.
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Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
#13
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Compression dictates cam choice. For every full point of compression increase it takes about 10 degrees more camshaft to compensate. It's just a rule of thumb I use here when building these engines.
If you find a cam that works well in all areas in a 400 build at 9.5 to 1 compression, it could and most likely will NOT be the best choice at 10 to 10.5 to 1 compression. In other words, and for example, a Crower 60243 camshaft is a "home run" in a 400 build with 10 to 1 or a tad higher compression. It will idle nicely, smooth off idle, and strong power clear across the loaded rpm range. IF you drop the static compression ratio back to 9 to 9.5 to 1, it will NOT idle nearly as well, and not work nearly as well in the low rpm range where the engine spends most of it's time. A cam with about 10 degrees less seat timing would work a lot better. I can't comment on the VooDoo cams, haven't used one, or seen any dyno and or track numbers on one as of yet, at least not in any application that I could use for comparison. Folks know full well on this Forum that I am NOT a big fan of the Comp XE grinds for a variety of reasons. With that said, I wouldn't be the first bit afraid of the VooDoo cams. Even though they are fast ramp, shorter seat timing, etc, I'm certain they do not use ultra-quick seating velocities which get the Comp XE cams quickly into trouble in actual use. That's just a hunch on my part, knowing the folks who were involved with designing them.....Cliff
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
#14
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To follow up, I finally got the Lunati installed. I'm still tweaking the tuning, but so far I love it. It's a completely different car under 2500, much more responsive and pleasurable to drive around town. I haven't really beat on it yet, but the top end feels pretty much the same to me. If I'm giving anything up, I can't tell. So far I'm pleased. Thanks for the recommendation Paul!
__________________
Ken '68 GTO - 464 - Ram Air II heads - 236/242 roller - 9.5” TSP converter - Moser 3.55 Truetrac (build thread | walk around) '95 Comp T/A #6 M6 - bone stock (pics) |
#15
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I've always liked the UD 280/288 hydraulic cam for 400 combos like that,friend has one in his '77 SJ/GP w/a 400 cid engine w/a 3000 stall & 3.90 gears and eveytime we go out cruising in that car it never fails to impress me how responsive/strong that motor is in a heavy ol' car like that.
Usually it's ground on a 110°/104° but one could get it custom ground on any LSA/ICL they might want,and they can get it thru either Bullet cams -or- Lunati cams,as both cam co.s have a set of the original UD master lobes. Lunati's "catalog" version is #10510313 (307A3). Catolg Description: Quote:
HTH Bret P. |
#16
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Quote:
Glad to hear it's running and you like it! Now go burn some tires!
__________________
Paul Carter Carter Cryogenics www.cartercryo.com 520-409-7236 Koerner Racing Engines You killed it, We build it! 520-294-5758 64 GTO, under re-construction, 412 CID, also under construction. 87 S-10 Pickup, 321,000 miles 99Monte Carlo, 293,000 miles 86 Bronco, 218,000 miles |
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