[Darth Menace]

Hi, I just spoke to a paint shop today. I told him I dont like the dirty/dusty look of my old paint, and would like a repaint. I dont want it to be a show car finish because it will just be a driver. I just dont want dirty/foggy paint. anyway he told me he can do a paint job (not water based) but without the clear. I know there used to be the 1 part paints that didnt require a clearcoat afterwards, but is there modern paint that doesn't require a clear and can still shine/be sealed?

[Verdoro 68]

Sure. Single stage urethane or enamel.

[JVM225]

I would look at the difference in price between the single stage paint job and a base coat/clear coat, and then make a decision.

[Darth Menace]

Originally Posted by JVM225

I would look at the difference in price between the single stage paint job and a base coat/clear coat, and then make a decision.

Do you mean there is a big difference, or not so much? Is there a big difference in the shine quality?

[JVM225]

I think there is a big difference in the quality of the finished product with the two stage paint job. Not sure what the price difference would be over the single stage, but since the prep work needs to be done either way, whatever the price difference is, you may be glad you paid it when all is said and done.
I would price it both ways. I've seen some nice single stage paint jobs, but I don't think they came out as nice as the base coat/clear coat.

[Verdoro 68]

My two cents: if you are going to plunk down the amount of coin a shop charges for a quality paint job it doesn't make sense to cheap out on single stage. Most of the cost is in the prep anyway.

I can't really talk trash about single stage because I've seen a lot of nice single stage jobs, but you'll get more mileage out of a base clear job. Especially if your car lives outside.

[65blackplate]

if you have a metalic color go with a base/clear
if it is a solid color single stage can be used but will not hold up to the sun as well...but is less work and $ too

[webfoot]

Have you tried some good ol' fashioned elbow grease? I've seen some older single stage jobs look pretty good after applying meguiars ultimate compound just by hand. (assuming that is what you have now)

It might not look so hot due to neglect, so worth a little bit of experimentation before you plunk down some serious bucks on a paint job. If you can post pics here, that would help a bunch.

[Darth Menace]

The problem is that pictures don't show the dust/dirt in the paint.

[65blackplate]

webfoot may be right you will be suprised what a polish will do to old paint
may be worth a try

[gtohurstjudge]

Darth, I've been reading all of your posts since you first bought
this car and I can tell from what you've said that you bought a car that is a beater
that needs everything with crappy paint to boot and what you really wanted was a nice car,
not a bottomless money pit. My advice to you is to put that sucker back on ebay and try
to get most of your money back, then with an expert who knows what he is looking at
in tow, find a car for sale that you can personally inspect that meets your standards and
purchase it and start enjoying it. The car you bought is a dog with fleas and it's time to have
him put down. If you start attempting to make a nice car out of the one you bought you are going to be so upside down on that car you will never see daylight. There is nothing more
tempting and at the same time heartbreaking as the 12,000 dollar classic car purchase.
The fact of the matter is that for seven thousand more dollars you can usually buy a car that
is twenty times nicer than the twelve thousand dollar car, and to make your twelve thousand dollar car as nice as that 19K car you would have to spend 25K on it unless you do all the work yourself, which you have stated that you don't have the skills to do. I will give you a case in point....For several years now I had been looking to purchase a 1965 Buick Riviera. I looked at hundreds of them on the internet that needed paint, interior,
drivetrain overhauls, front end, glass, trim and other major needs that I could have bought
for 12K to 15K. All these cars needed major work to be a nice car, in most cases needing
a very expensive complete resto. Last month I found a 55,000 mile example that had
never been driven in the rain, never had a door ding, never any rust, absolutely flawless
original interior, runs and drives like a brand new car, Very nice thirty year old repaint over
flawless virgin sheet metal, and I paid 19K for it. I've been driving it since I got it and it
draws a crowd everywhere it goes. A friend of mine without my knowledge bought an internet 69 GTO hardtop that needed paint, interior, weatherstrips, engine overhaul, trans
overhaul, front end overhaul, rust repair, brakes, tires, etc. for 15 K. He now has 40 K in
it and when he saw my Riviera I thought he was going to start crying. Take my advice
and bail out and pull the ripcord. Consider this a learning experience.

[webfoot]

Dirt might just be stuck on there. Before I went out and paid for a repaint, I'd wash it real good, then go over it with a clay bar, then try the polishing compound.

[JVM225]

If you don't have the time or skills to do a good portion of the work yourself, then maybe you should consider gtohurstjudge's advice.
An added thing to consider with your present car is that while it isn't a GTO, anything you buy for it, or any work you pay to have done, will cost you what it would cost if it were a GTO. Yet it will never be worth near what a real GTO will be worth in the end.
I've had my car for about 16 or 17 years now. It was a good solid complete numbers matching real GTO when I got it with a mediocre re-paint in the wrong color over nice sheet metal.
I drove it home and continued to drive it for a year or two while I gathered my pennies to do it over. I was able to do most of the mechanical stuff myself, and then take everything off of it, gut the complete interior and dash, etc., before sending it out for media blasting followed by new paint in the correct color. Once I got the car home from the body shop via flatbed, I spent several months putting it all back together. I've enjoyed the fruits of my labor for many years now.
If I hadn't been able to do the lion's share of the work myself it would have been a whole other experience.
I have a friend that was looking for a classic car for years. He called on me to go look at cars many times for him over the last dozen or so years, and while some were dogs, others were nice worthwhile project cars for the right person. Since he has no real mechanical skills, or much time to do any of the work, I always advised him against buying the cars we looked at.
But he kept looking at bargain cars because he wanted to feel like he got a deal. He thought he was going to find that classic muscle car with 20,000 miles on it tucked away under glass for decades in some old lady's garage that everyone else in the world missed, and he was going to get it for less than 10 grand.
For years I kept telling him that the best way for a guy like him to get what he wanted would be to buy a finished car, and pay the price. It would be a lot cheaper in the long run.
This past summer he took my advice and picked up a really nicely done 69 4 speed GTO convertible. It's not numbers matching, but it has a correct coded motor, and was really re-done well. It took him many years to see the light and value of buying a finished car, and he is happy he went that way. He paid what I think was a fair price for the car, and was able to get something that he has done nothing but drive and enjoy for the last several months.
He didn't get a bargain, and he didn't steal the car. He laid out a lot more money than he had ever anticipated, but he could get his money back out of it tomorrow if he wanted to.
That's a pretty good deal!
I don't regard my car as an investment. Although I could get more for it than I have invested dollar wise simply because I've had it so long, my intention is to never sell it. That will fall upon my kids if they decide to get rid of it after I'm gone. I also strongly advise the average guy against thinking of classic cars as investments. The guys with the shops you see on TV might make money on the cars they re-do, but I'll bet they don't make a killing on all of them, and they have the shop, equipment, and staff to get the job done.
But while the average guy shouldn't get in to a classic car as an investment, he should at least try to be in a position where he can get back close to the dollar amount he has in to the car if the need to sell it ever arises. Chances of ever getting compensated for the time are slim.
While I'm sure it's nice, I tend to think that you may be hard pressed to fall into that category with your Tempest convertible.
You may want to either just enjoy it the way it is without investing anything in to it, or if you decide to get involved in a re-paint or other large scale expensive projects, you may be better off putting back on EBay.

[paint guy]

Repainting with a paint that doesn't require a clear coat will either be lacquer, some type of enamel (with or without a hardener) or a single-stage urethane, this typically being the best for durability of the choices I listed. That being said, none of those will approach BC/CC for durability, and as mentioned above, if you are going to pay for a paint job, there is no sense skimping on the paint since so little of the total cost is the paint itself. If it were me, and I couldn't (or wouldn't) do most of the work myself to get the car to my satisfaction, I would try webfoots advice first, and if not successful, think long and hard about what gtohurstjudge and JVM225 wrote. This can be a tough (read:expensive) hobby if you cant do about 60-75% of the work required on any one car yourself.

[geeteeohguy]

I prefer single stage to clear coat 2 stage. It looks correct. My '65 was painted in 1985 in single stage enamel, and still looks good. My '67 was done in single stage in 1993 and still looks good. I had a '66 done in base/clear and the clear started going away after only 10 years. I keep my cars, and paint jobs are spendy. I have YET to see a clear coated car that doesn't start to lose it's clear like dandruff in 1o years or less. Plus, cleared cars are too shiny....the Barrett Jackson 'glazed ham' look. These cars didn't look like this when new, and to me, look wrong when done this way. A single stage enamel job is a durable, viable option if the painter knows how to apply it.

[cuz68]

Darth, I think that gtohurstjudge and JVM225 Are telling you the right thing to do with your car, I think you would be much happer with a car that is road ready Just think about it OK. My gto is under a carport it has set outside also, It was painted enamel 27 yrs ago the paint has held up good we did not use flex on the bumper only a few cracks in it.

[Darth Menace]

Originally Posted by gtohurstjudge

which you have stated that you don't have the skills to do.

GTOhurstjudge- Hi, thanks for the write-up. I don't think I said I dont have the skills, but I don't have the knowledge...which is why I will be posting here lots to get the assistance from the more knowledgable. What bugged me about the car was those things that stood out like a sore thumb...like the windowfelts, weatherstripping, some emblems pitted, etc. After a bit of looking around, from what I see all these hideous parts should cost about $800 to buy new. A little bit of coin for a HUGE difference in looks. The smaller mechanical issues, such as low idle, brake lights, etc are something I believe I can work on over the winter with some help from here and some cursing from me. Unless there is a larger engine/transmission problem I don't know of, I am feeling somewhat positive with this knowing that some of my problems are common and not end of the world. What is the saving grace with this car is the interior is very nice, and the body is solid (even after being looked at by a few paint shops who were thoroughly impressed with it)

I have learned that buying cars sight unseen isn't always a flawless thing. When I bought my Viper off ebay 2 years ago, the paint was nice and shiney, body was solid, and everything looked amazing. I drove it for about a week and it started to shoot out anti-freeze. The timing cover gasket had rotted out and that was a somewhat expensive fix for me (I am always wanting to do my own repairs if I can, but tearing apart a motor - especially of that value- is something I don't feel confident in doing)

I am not expecting a show car that looks like it came right off the show room floor, but a fun convertible that me and my family can go cruising in. Something the Viper can't offer

[Bob-o]

What a weird thread... A guy asks a simple but complex question and receives some very valid information in regards to his question along with some offered advice that can be hard to give and sometimes even harder to receive. The original poster accepts all of it without seeming to be offended and the thread continues without hard feelings or the too often seen "internet tough guy showdown". Pretty cool!
Whereas I don't know a thing about paint I can add that my first car was a 75 nova that had obviously been painted outside. At 18 and not having nearly the coin to drop on a paintjob I began the tedious process of rubbing it out with compound by hand. It was horribly exhausting but I'll be darned if it didn't make a world of difference. I doubt it will be what you want to wind up with for paint in the end but it will deffinitly surprise you. Advice I can give on the repaint, whether it be single stage, or bc/cc is due your due diligence in regards to the shop you choose. The horror stories I have read and experienced 1st hand about shops that keep your car forever or botch the paint in a hurry has scared me into painting my own car. I have most of the metal work done now but it will still be next spring before its ready for paint. So I study these kinds of threads as often as possible. Whatever you choose to do, good luck!

[Half-Inch Stud]

Very glad that I insisted my Starlight Black got no clear-coat. All the benefits, not aware of any drawback.

[paint guy]

Here's a few pros and cons to single-stage vs BC/CC: (Not all of these factors will come into play for a classic car refinish due to the fact that most are not subjected to snow, salted roads, or even much rain, and are garage kept)
BB/CC: Clear will allow any UV inhibitors used to function 100% as they wont be "buried " in the film by color pigment.
Clears allow a higher degree of protection to the pigment in the color coat as the pigment is isolated from surface exposure by the clear. Because of this, single-stage paints may appear more intense color-wise, because the pigment is not covered by a coat of clear.
The failure mode from UV breakdown usually results in peeling of the clearcoat in a BC/CC system. A single-stage coating failure may result in pigment color fading, "bronzing", loss of gloss, etc. Because of the ability of the UV source (the sun) to "see" the UV inhibitors much better (as mentioned above) BC/CC will last much longer and lose much less gloss when compared to single-stage in a side-by-side comparison. This assumes that both systems have an equal amount and the same type of UV inhibitors when formulated. UV inhibitors are very expensive are are one reason why clears may be priced differently.
All pigments have an oil absorption rate and as pigment levels are increased in a paint, the gloss of the dried film tends to go down. This is one reason why primers are lower in gloss, a typically higher level of pigmentation. It is, as a general rule, easier to achieve greater adhesion with a pigmented coating than a clear, as pigments help to bite into the metal profile sufrace. This is one reason why it is important to observe a paint manufacturer's recommended recoat window between base and clear application, clear adhesion to a base color could be less than optimal if this recoat window is not adhered to. Also, because pigment has an oil demand, pigmented coating may have a lower "depth-of -image" (DOI) gloss when compared to a clear. This lower gloss may not be apparent when looked at at a 60-90 degreee angle, but becomes more visible when measured at 20* angle light source, or when the human eye looks down a painted panel at a sharp angle rather than "head-on".
When a single-stage solid colr paint gets scratched, the color expoased below is essentially the same color, provided the scratch is not deep enough to go to the primer, or worse, bare metal. When a BC/CC is scratched, the scratch may show up as a different color, therefore becoming more obvious.

To sum up, single-stage paints must do more things because of their nature: UV protection, scratch and mar resistance, isolation and protection of the pigmentation,etc.
BC/CC bases have only one function: to provide color so that a clear can be applied for protection. In addition, any additives used to disperse the pigments when the color coat is manufactured (wetting agents, surfactants,etc) are isolated from the surface. This can be very important as some of these additives, while necessary for pigment dispersion, may have other detrimental effects. The clear can now concentrate on scratch and mar resistance, UV protection,protection from environmental exposure, etc.
For a classic car that is garage-kept for most of its time, hardle ever sees rain, and has a UV exposure of only hours (or days in a northern climate) will all the UV inhibitors in the film ever expire? (They are sacrificial) The chances are probably not in our lifetime. A car that is kept outside in a southern climate is a different story. Any car that I owned that is farther south than say Oklahoma, garage kept or not, I would put the best clear on it I could. Hope that helps.