#41  
Old 11-01-2016, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
No argument with what you have done and are doing! Considering FI and other modern solutions for my 62 Catalina. My post was only comparing bone stock to bone stock. Just like you said, once you own it, you can do whatever you want to make it better/faster. No doubt it's more expensive and difficult to modify a new muscle car once you get past a basic re-flash and simple bolt-ons. Keep up what you are doing, turning some heads and spreading Pontiac Power!
look into the FiTech Efi system. You won't be disappointed for the price! Yes, stock for stock the new cars are faster no doubt! Thats just what technology brings. But who wants to race stock cars anyways! lol. I will always have Pontiac power and will always promote it!

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  #42  
Old 11-01-2016, 09:48 AM
Nicks67GTO Nicks67GTO is offline
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Goodluck on that LGT700. I was just told yesterday a 16 week wait and only 3 retailers that deal with it in the country that I know of. Doesn't look promising.
Yeah iv'e heard that they can be hard to get. I'm not going to be in the market for a new 5/6 speed for a year so and iv'e driven a silversport shifted T56 car quite a bit. I'm seriously considering cutting the sheetmetal for one. its no big deal to me.

I only mentioned the LGT700 because its a real no cut option. The point of the post was that pro touring mods to any musclecar are massive improvements and I would do it to literally any car I planed to drive

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  #43  
Old 11-01-2016, 09:54 AM
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Yes the LGT's are nice, great package. I can only hope their availability becomes more accessible in the future so prices become more competitive. That will likely take more interest, and at the current $4200 price tag I'm not so sure many people are going to bite when you can buy a TKO for $2300. Pretty big price spread on 5 speeds.

  #44  
Old 11-01-2016, 11:25 AM
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Couple things on the old cars and times posted in trade mags from back in the day. Most of the time, they were not properly tuned, and/or were still pre-production, not all the bugs worked out. Just like fit & finish, tune suffered off the assembly line. Not to mention tires.

If you add up the advantages new or newer cars have, and change that stuff on the old cars, they're right there from a performance stand point, or very close.

When you talk about top end, of course, back in the day there were no OD transmissions. There again, in an attempt to make a well rounded car, you couldn't particularly put 410s in everything. If you look at the Hellcat Charger for example, the rear ratio is equivalent to a 4.88, with a double overdrive.

Brakes. And clutches for that matter. Friction material is waaay better these days.

What rear tire does a Hellcat have on it? Or the Z06? Yeah. Same thing. Add that to an older car, and the gap starts closing even more.

Handling. Honestly, I would have thought we would be further along than we are, but it is better. If you look at some of the prepared cars from back in the day, you will see skid pad number are still fairly close. Look at the Herb Adams prepared 2nd gens, those things still hold their' own today, against most cars. Yes, the cream of the crop is better, but there's such a wide cost margin it can suck the fun out of it for most.

I think we should see more tech on street cars from Formula 1 cars. It takes too long for that tech to be incorporated into street cars, maybe if that (the process) was sped up it would help.

.

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  #45  
Old 11-01-2016, 11:36 AM
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I'm the opposite. Call me old school I guess. I don't care about the G-machines of today, they just don't do anything for me. I can't even stand to see a classic with any more than a 15" wheel. My entire family drives nothing but classics and we are perfectly happy.

My wife daily drives an X33 Z28 daily with it's little high winding 302 and 4-gear behind it. My son drives an older mustang and I drive any number of classic cars from 3 different brands depending on the mood. I don't really care how they stop or turn. For us they drive just fine. We enjoy the simplicity, low cost to maintain and very easy to work on, the classic style and attention, and no car payments

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Old 11-01-2016, 11:43 AM
ta man ta man is offline
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A big part of my tuning motivation is trying to be quicker than most new cars.Years ago it was 5.0 Mustangs then progressed,LS Camaros,Trans Ams,new vettes,vipers,mustangs etcMy first big kill was a Z06 vette...he just couldn't drive..my car was only running low 13's.On my kill list the last couple of years..every stock new car has lost other than a S65 v 12 twin turbo benz which got me first pass...I got him on the next one..by 4 tenths,last outing I finally got a Hellcat to race beat him by half a second.

Torquewar loves the same sort of stuff..running the fast new cars or beating up on the Dodge boys or BBC guys.

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  #47  
Old 11-01-2016, 11:48 AM
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There's certainly something to be said about no car payments! And up until recently, I drove nothing but classics, the cost was way lower than a new car, even with upgrades. Once you factor in property tax, insurance, maintenance, etc, even an econo box over a 3-5 year period would afford you a very nice muscle car.

Just to touch on the point again, when it comes to performance, do a simple power to weight ratio comparison of older cars to newer cars. Sure, factor in the difference in the way those numbers were, and are now calculated. Then compare where the differences are in other areas, like gearing, overdrive, etc, and you can make those changes to your classic, and be right there.

.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
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1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
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Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #48  
Old 11-01-2016, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
There's certainly something to be said about no car payments! And up until recently, I drove nothing but classics, the cost was way lower than a new car, even with upgrades. Once you factor in property tax, insurance, maintenance, etc, even an econo box over a 3-5 year period would afford you a very nice muscle car.

Just to touch on the point again, when it comes to performance, do a simple power to weight ratio comparison of older cars to newer cars. Sure, factor in the difference in the way those numbers were, and are now calculated. Then compare where the differences are in other areas, like gearing, overdrive, etc, and you can make those changes to your classic, and be right there.

.
Sounds like we have a lot in common. We used to do a lot of the new car stuff through the 80's-90's and into the early 2000's. LS powered stuff, car payments, higher insurance etc... I still drove classics fairly regularly but it was my wife that pushed to drive nothing but classics several years ago. She, just like many, got sick of insurance and car payments, the depreciation (high buy in and low sale) and the cost of maintenance was getting crazy. It also made sense that my job revolves around restoring classics from mechanics to paint and body. So the decision was actually very easy.
We don't need 30 mpg, and we don't need to whip around corners as fast as possible. I much rather enjoy buying $150 a-piece 15" tires. When it came time to put tires on our Z06 at $400 a piece, that car got shipped to a new owner

  #49  
Old 11-01-2016, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by ta man View Post
A big part of my tuning motivation is trying to be quicker than most new cars.Years ago it was 5.0 Mustangs then progressed,LS Camaros,Trans Ams,new vettes,vipers,mustangs etcMy first big kill was a Z06 vette...he just couldn't drive..my car was only running low 13's.On my kill list the last couple of years..every stock new car has lost other than a S65 v 12 twin turbo benz which got me first pass...I got him on the next one..by 4 tenths,last outing I finally got a Hellcat to race beat him by half a second.

Torquewar loves the same sort of stuff..running the fast new cars or beating up on the Dodge boys or BBC guys.
That is a never ending sickness. Once you cure that your expenses drop dramatically
My father still has that sickness, and even at his age went and built that 571 for the street. It'll easily click off some 10's when the car is dialed in. I have a chevelle that goes bottom 11's with a mild 454, and plans to drop a more rambunctious 502 in it to see if it will go 10's. But to be honest it's not high on the priority list and I'm certainly not doing it to compete with new cars. Quite frankly I enjoy driving the other classic cars just as much that only run 13's and 14's. They are just a pleasure to drive and that's what I'm in this hobby for.

  #50  
Old 11-01-2016, 12:48 PM
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That is a never ending sickness. Once you cure that your expenses drop dramatically
My father still has that sickness, and even at his age went and built that 571 for the street. It'll easily click off some 10's when the car is dialed in. I have a chevelle that goes bottom 11's with a mild 454, and plans to drop a more rambunctious 502 in it to see if it will go 10's. But to be honest it's not high on the priority list and I'm certainly not doing it to compete with new cars. Quite frankly I enjoy driving the other classic cars just as much that only run 13's and 14's. They are just a pleasure to drive and that's what I'm in this hobby for.
More a passion than a sickness..I use a winter budget and a summer budget..This year I dropped 3 and half tenths for the cost of a new intake..pretty good investment at my power level.I had probably my best year ever tuning..every time except once at the track the car went faster!This winter the budget is quite a bit higher..new shortblock,rearend work and a few other changes.

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best et 10.679/127.5/1.533 60ft
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  #51  
Old 11-01-2016, 01:04 PM
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Me too, during a refresh one time, of my daily driver, it was during a gas spike, and was building an engine. My buddy asked "What are you building?". That's when I went from 400s to a 461. He looked at me like I was from the moon.

I've driven the LeMans as a daily driver from like 1993 to 2014. For the longest time, I averaged 30k-40k miles a year, and rebuilt the engine every 3-4 years. As soon as the old one came out, I would have it torn down, and planning the next build. No hurry, I had 3-4 years to finish it. Every time would do upgrades too, and the only thing in between was gas, tires, and oil, for the most part.

Only reason I stopped driving it as a daily driver was because I started a job where I can take the train. And the heck if I was going to leave my car at the station all day. Especially when guys were going through the parking lot while everyone was at work, hacking out cats from SUVs, and taking them to the metal recyclers for the platinum.

I would do transmissions too, had a spare TH400, would freshen that, and it would go in the same time the engine would. The last one ended up in the 442. (But that will soon be swapped for a 4L80E)

I pay $25 a year for property tax, and like $185 every 6 mo for insurance. Beat that with any new car. And people argue with me that I spend too much money on cars. Ha! I spend way less than most. Have a friend with a newer SRT Charger. Think it's a 2012 or 13. Maintenance is eating him up. If I had what he drops monthly on that thing, and the other money that goes into that car, I could have built 2 or 3 of what I have now.

Had A '67 Coronet convertible once, built that for my wife (at that time), nothing special, Legendary did the interior, rust taken care of & had it painted, 318 car, aluminum intake, 4bbl, 904, 323 8 3/4 rear. Got 28+ miles to the gallon, was a sweet car. I had about $7k in it total. Deal.

Friend gave me a car once, if I paid for towing. It was a 76 AMC Spirit, straight six. Was like $80 by the time I got it out of the yard from being towed. Battery, brakes, rebuilt the carb, tires, and a good cleaning. That thing would fry a tire, and do like 120. Drive that thing for 6 years, and like 140k miles.

Even 4 doors IMO, I would like to do a wagon even.

.

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  #52  
Old 11-01-2016, 10:29 PM
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Okay I give Jonny, What's LSD stand for? When I read that I'm thinking a popular drug in the 60's is now optional with a new car

  #53  
Old 11-01-2016, 10:38 PM
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Limited slip differential. Works like a trutrack or other helical type torque splitting differentials.

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  #54  
Old 11-02-2016, 07:45 AM
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Long thread but with many good views .I had the pleasure of driving a new SS Camaro , wow what a nice well balanced car. I liked it but I could buy another classic with its price tag.
I like my older noisy smelly car that makes me happy because I built it .
The hobby for me is researching what works and applying those changes when funds allow. I' like the drag thing but I also enjoy driving something unique.
Going to the track and beating a car that is 2 or 3 times more money is satisfying. .
This isn't a priority for me but its all about challenging my mechanical/ tuning ability at this point.
There are always faster vehicles ....don't care ,just happy meeting some other Poncho guys and having fun.

  #55  
Old 11-02-2016, 08:17 AM
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I have driven plenty of newer cars at my last job. I worked at Sam's club tire department. I drove new 5.0 mustangs, LS Trans Ams, LS Camaros, Ls Corvettes, 03 Cobras, Chargers, Challengers, etc. Drove one 650 hp 2004 supercharged z06. Honestly, none of them really impressed me. They just dont have the torque that my built 455 makes. Out of all of them, honestly, I liked the new 5.0 the most. It really wasn't because of the power per say, it just drove really smooth and I think it would make a good commuter that has some power behind it as well. It was a 6 speed car and an older woman brought it in for new tires.

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  #56  
Old 11-02-2016, 03:23 PM
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...
There are always faster vehicles ....don't care ,just happy meeting some other Poncho guys and having fun.
This is key.

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  #57  
Old 11-02-2016, 03:44 PM
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The GTO will be down until next year and it's been awhile since I've been to the track so I took my daily driver for some test and tune fun yesterday.
It's an Infiniti M37x awd, 3.7 v6 330hp. Basically a big sporty/luxo sedan with a little giddy up.

I ran with the street cars and was surprised at how fast some of the newer ones ran. Small turnout because of the weather, very few older cars and no Pontiac street cars there which is unusual at Thompson.

I got absolutely smoked by an Audi S4 that went 11.30 @ 121. I know nothing about them but whatever was done to this one worked.

I then got beat by a Jeep Cherokee SRT 8? that went 12.5 @ 107.

A Hellcat Charger (where's wheneaglesfly?) went high 9's @ 144!!! on DOT drag radials looking stock.

Saw a Mustang and Camaro both run well into the 11's with DRs.

When my car is done it should be well into the 10's which by that time will probably have treading water against the new gen powerhouses. It's getting crazy out there!

I did manage a 14.25 @ 97, which is almost exactly what my GTO ran the first time it went to the track when it had a bone stock 400/350 horse w/3.55 & 4 speed. Somehow it seemed so much faster back then.
and when you get your car deep into the 10's it won't be nearly as comfortable or streetable as these new cars are. technology my friend!

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  #58  
Old 11-02-2016, 04:18 PM
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You also have to consider comfortable and streetable are subjective and only opinions among people. It's different for everyone.

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Old 11-02-2016, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
You also have to consider comfortable and streetable are subjective and only opinions among people. It's different for everyone.
I understand what you're saying here, but there is a large difference between a 10 second 1969 Firebird and a 10 Second Hellcat.

The bird is probably coming to the track with slicks and skinnies, has some weight reduction, may or may not have sway bars, 50/50's and 90/10s etc.

The Hellcat shows up stock with a set of drag radials.

It's true that a lot of people are more than comfortable driving a car like the bird on the street and calling it streetable. It is fundamentally not as streetable as a stock hellcat with a set of drag radials on it.

hwystr455 has is right. These cars can compete with new models, but you have to make significant modifications to get them on par. Luckily many of those modifications also increase the streetability of the car. Modern suspensions, tires, brakes etc.

In the context of straight line performance only though it's an apples to oranges comparison.

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  #60  
Old 11-02-2016, 04:58 PM
gtorich gtorich is offline
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Goodluck on that LGT700. I was just told yesterday a 16 week wait and only 3 retailers that deal with it in the country that I know of. Doesn't look promising.
Not sure that 16 week deal is all that accurate, I ordered one in March of this year..........I see I'm up to 3rd on the list...........but then again I was 3rd 3 months ago. LOL

Rich

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