[Brewster]

Craig you have to get it over 3500 rpms to truly test the,

[Norwood]

No I haven't , maybe next year

[Judge273]

Hey Dennis, No blame at all. Happy with the 40 miles to date of performance. Reliability was and is my goal in this build all along.

So, when the lifters failed that didn't fit main plan....haha noisy I'll accept if it goes away with a nice run.

Whirling, screeching, banging are not expected or wanted after 40 miles.

Had I known it was just a lifter gone bad, and not the type of failure thought by others...( A thrown rod)

I would not have had it towed and dissected by mechanic to determine it was a bad lifter. Although I was happy it didn't do any damage like scatter the push rod or such.

But, waiting for warranty work would be another two to three weeks out. Seemed too long for this time of year here to get miles on car to brake in rings....

[SD455DJ]

Mike, I was just playing with ya. I have the Summit 2801 cam and lifter kit in the Formula's 455HO and the 2802 cam & lifter kit in the '70 LeMans' 455 and both are kinda' noisy under the valve covers, at least noisier than the previous lifters we used. I am getting adequate oiling to the top end which is good. I am wondering if Summit supplies Johnson Hy-Lifts 951r's with their packaged cams they sell which are the quicker bleed-down lifter (higher rpm) and their website mentions some ticking I believe. I'll have to check it out again.

I'm glad to hear all is well with the motor so far and continues to be. Stories of bad lifters is too prevalent these days.

Dennis

[Judge273]

I agree with that for sure.

[superdutybob]

Originally Posted by Norwood

No I haven't , maybe next year

You're not spinning my old car harder than 3500 are you Craig? Please tell SDD to take her easy!

[weranc55]

Originally Posted by SD455DJ

Mike, I was just playing with ya. I have the Summit 2801 cam and lifter kit in the Formula's 455HO and the 2802 cam & lifter kit in the '70 LeMans' 455 and both are kinda' noisy under the valve covers, at least noisier than the previous lifters we used. I am getting adequate oiling to the top end which is good. I am wondering if Summit supplies Johnson Hy-Lifts 951r's with their packaged cams they sell which are the quicker bleed-down lifter (higher rpm) and their website mentions some ticking I believe. I'll have to check it out again.

I'm glad to hear all is well with the motor so far and continues to be. Stories of bad lifters is too prevalent these days.

Dennis

Rick Johnson did a ra3 motor for me last year and he used a edelbrock cam and lifters. At idle the motor was making lots of lifter noise. It would go away at about 1100 rpm. Hard to find a good cam and lifter these days.

[Formulabruce]

THIS, a Good read, dated 2012....Hot rod bulletin board... I went to visit a guy who had this same problem, took out the high pressure pump spring and back to stock, and Mexico Lifters and it was good....
>> " The major U.S. manufacturers of hydraulic flat tappet lifters are now Johnson Tappet, Hylift-Johnson, a division of Topline Inc., and Delphi.

The major 'offshore' producer of lifters is currently Eaton with plants in Mexico, India, Turkey and a new plant in China.

Be advised that Johnson Tappet DOES NOT make a Pontiac specific flat tappet lifter. Johnson tappet DOES make a universal, high-band lifter that will work in some Pontiacs, under part 4114, but it is NOT a Pontiac specific item.

IF you are buying a 'Johnson' Pontiac lifter, it is NOT made by Johnson and is a counterfeit, or re-boxed Eaton lifter - period.

This was confirmed by Johnson Tappet's Product Manager Joe Lewis.

Comp's 852 is currently a Delphi lifter, according to Comp's Scooter Brothers and David Butler. This is said to be a quality lifter and is Pontiac specific in its configuration. However, Comp recently announced they are dropping Delphi as a supplier and are yet to announce their new supplier.

Hylift-Johnson does make a Pontiac specific hydraulic flat tappet under Part #A-0951 and #A-0951R. Hylift-Johnson is the source for Summit and Jeg's house brand hydraulic flat tappet lifters. These seem to be a good lifter and are 100% U.S.A. made from U.SA. materials.

Topline, who owns Hylift-Johnson, has recently discovered knock-off versions of their lifters in circulation, complete with counterfeit packaging and phony SKUs. Out of 30 recent returns of Jeg's lifters, none were Hylift-Johnson's and all appeared to be the result of the practice of 'rebox rotation' by consumers, substitutig stock used and 'Brand-X' lifters due to Jeg's liberal return policy.

Hylift-Johnson maintains that the big lifter "problem" first began when Standadyne started using "offshore raw materials" around 2006 and thus all the failed lifter bodies were blamed on reduced Zinc levels in the oil, which wasn't the problem at all.

All of this was confirmed by Topline's General Manager, David Popp, who also advised that Hylift-Johnson is the source for all of Rhoad's component parts; a fact later confirmed by Rhaod's.

According to several of my industry sources, the Eaton lifters should be avoided, but it's not quite that easy and definitely not the end of the story.

My problems started when I ended up with a set of 'L-951' hydraulic lifters, which turned out to be an Eaton product. Eaton makes them for Melling, Federal-Mogul, Sealed Power and Engine Tech at their plants in Mexico, India, Turkey and most recently, China. Most of these lifters carry the 'L' designation in their part number, but the same lifters are also marketed under part numbers JB-951 and HT-951.

While many folks do claim good luck with the "Hecho En Mexico" Eatons, and I do not doubt that some of these lifters are providing good service, I had some real problems with the set that I obtained.

Of interesting note, Hylift-Johnson has offered to perform an autopsy on these L-951s and provide a full written report as to their findings, but here are the preliminary issues I experienced.

These lifters would hammer until the motor warmed up and then would be dead quiet. No matter how they were adjusted, zero lash, one-quarter turn, one-half, three-quarters and 1 full turn, the noise persisted. When I first backed the adjustment off to one quarter turn, I told Jim Lehart that the problem was fixed, but the noise returned after 24-36 hours of sitting.

After 800 miles of highway time on the new 413 Pontiac, I knew the problem wasnt going away. Oil analysis revealed wear metal numbers lower than standard for a rebuilt engine and the quiet nature of the top end when hot suggested the lobes were OK.

So, as long as the engine was warm, the top end was quiet. As an experiment, I switched from Valvoline 20w50 to Valvoline 10w30 with no improvement. I tried using Bosch, Fram, WIX and AC oil filters with no improvement.

Oil pressure at the filter housing and the drilled passage beneath the distributor were 30 psi/60 psi hot and both within 2-3 psi of each other at both locations - all the time.

On a technical note, the rear oil galley plug is present and visible through the distributor opening and both sides of the motor oils wildly once the temps come up.

The valve springs used are an Isky #5105 dual w/damper installed at 1.687 with 100 lbs seated and 265/270 lbs open. The lifters had the correct oil band location and micd out to .842 in diameter, but I knew something wasnt right.

After pulling the valley pan and lifters, I found a perfect UD 231/235-110 camshaft, despite many hours of hammering when cold. The lifters also looked perfect. Out of pure curiosity, I decided to run the oil pump with the lifters installed without pushrods.

To my amazement, oil would flood out of the lifter, between the plunger and body, but nothing came out of the oil hole or between the lifter body and the block!!!!

It seems that the plunger/barrel clearance is excessive and is allowing the oil an "escape path" before it can get through the piddle valve and up to the top end. I can only assume, in the absence of a small enough inside mic, that this clearance is closed up, to some degree, by heat, at which time the lifter then functions normally.

When I dropped in a SUM-951 lifter, it oiled wildly through the oil hole immediately.

Interestingly, while poking around on the Internet, I found an old archived post about a similar problem with a Pontiac 455, which I have posted for your information and review below:

"I just built a fresh 455. New Comp Cams Extreme Energy, Lifters are Comp Cams 852-16. Upon priming the oil system, no oil comes out from the new roller rockers, or even up the pushrods. I removed one lifter and replaced it with my old H-O Pontiac lifter with the snap ring retainer. On priming, that pushrod and rocker arm gets plenty of oil now......"

In more recent discussions, I have had several people tell me they have replaced Comp 852s in their Pontiacs because they didnt oil correctly to the top end, a problem which disappeared when a different lifter was employed.

I have also had people tell me they are very pleased with the "Hecho En Mexico" Sealed Power and Federal Moguls.

Now it would seem that this is no longer a simple matter of not using an Eaton lifter, as it appears to be affecting Pontiacs en masse."

[Brewster]

Holly crap Bruce thats the longest post I hvce ever seen. Wowzah

[Judge273]

Liftergate...call Batman

[SD455DJ]

Hylift-Johnson does make a Pontiac specific hydraulic flat tappet under Part #A-0951 and #A-0951R. Hylift-Johnson is the source for Summit and Jeg's house brand hydraulic flat tappet lifters. These seem to be a good lifter and are 100% U.S.A. made from U.SA. materials.

So, according to the post from Formulabruce, the Summit cam kits do come with HyLift -Johnsons which is what I had heard a few years ago. I wonder why mine are on the noisy side then. Formulabruce, thanks for posting that useful information. That is excellent to know.

Dennis

[Judge273]

My car has the Summit 2802 cam with the slightly domed custom piston to increase compression. With the Hilift Johnson 951R lifters in the box...



And it's running great again!

[Norwood]

Ok so if u buy Summit or Jegs your getting the Johnson? I want to change my mellings out now

[unruhjonny]

awe crap!

From another thread*, I had come to understand that if the lifter carried the 951 part number, I was getting a good part - but Bruce's post suggests that if it's an "L-951" that it's Eaton crap... well I just looked up my order, and sure enough "L951";
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...513&cc=1249275

Poop.

Is there any identifier on the packaging which would confirm the place of manufacture?

* = Here is my path of deciding;
THIS thread gave me THIS link, and then the following quote:

Originally Posted by dataway

When you look at lifter part numbers ... search for variations of 951, 951R, 951S ... I notice Comp Cams has sets that use both the 951, and 951R HyLift numbers, as does Rhoads, Lunati, Melling, Sealed Power and Summit.

Most of these manufacturers just tack on a couple of letters or numbers to the HyLift part number and call it their own.
At least that's the way it looks to me.

I hope I don't have garbage sitting in boxes...

[Transamric]

So the ultimate bottom line here is to pass on "skid" lifters and go with roller cam & lifters?

[unruhjonny]

/\ /\ Not for me.

1) I will always have a budget in mind
2) When going with aftermarket components, most people stop when their funds run out... or they have been convinced they've gone far enough.
3) There will always be someone faster than you - I choose to have fun rather than try to be the big boy on the block.

I will run stock components, on stock, or OEM style valvetrain components (upgrading to BBC rocker studs and crimp nuts is an example)...

I have decided that if it doesn't look 100% stock, then it's "too far" for me... I won't go roller anything.
I decided that if it isn't PSMCD legal, then it's "too far" for me - but I will permit myself liberties on my engine that I will not be using for PSMCD that fall under the "day 2" realm of modifications ~ which is why I have run a 744 cam, and am going to try out a 041 cam.

I love to see and follow these types of threads where guys are going to great lengths to bring cars back, or make them correct.

[njsteve]

Crazy question but did anyone ever check to make sure no prior owner put restrictor plugs into the lifter oil feed passages? When I was building the 455HO for my 72 T/A ten years ago, I found that someone had installed them when they did a prior rebuild. Glad I caught that and removed them because some of them had blocked passages that would have resulted in no oil to the lifter and rockers.

[Norwood]

That's not crazy Steve, I never considered that. I would think that a competent engine builder would know this during the cleaning of the block as well as during a compleat block inspection. Key word competent.

[bird72]

Should one worry about any of this with current roller lifters? My build in progress is Lunati roller & provided lifters and I did not check lifter boxes when I gave to builder, when I go over tomorrow I will look. All this read is terrible news. It is like having a strong chain with a paper clip link in the middle.

[PAUL K]

Does anyone have a picture of a recently purchased Summit lifter they can post? It's been a couple of years since I used any of their "house brand" cam and lifter kits, but the last kits we purchased definitely were not supplied with Hy-lift Johnson lifters.