[pontibeast]

One piece main seal and oil gasket. I had pan removed and oil pump cleaned and blue printed as it was packed with Vaseline when my mechanic removed the pan. Pickup was tack welded on and set at 3/8. Base plate was trued to be 100% flat. No it is going to be broken in in the car, oil changed after break in and then driven 100 miles or so followed by an oil change and then taken to chassis dyno. It is a roller cam so no worries about flat tappet cam break in.

[69 Limelight]

Connecting rod side clearances seem a little tight to me. Guess not though or I'm sure GTOFreek would have mentioned it in his previous post. Think I would have your installer fill crankcase with proper amount of oil and hang and tilt it from engine hoist for period of time to check for rear main leak or leak at rear of pan over rear main bearing cap. Could save labor charges of having to pull engine again if you have a leak

[pontibeast]

That's a good idea. I live up in the mountains and my driveway is really steep incline. Several of our cars have leaked at the rear main on the climb up to the house and when we get home there is smoke coming from the exhaust where oil had leaked coming up the hill.

[vidguy]

Originally Posted by AG

Impossible to have all main and rod clearances exactly the same..

That was what I noticed....

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by 69 Limelight

Connecting rod side clearances seem a little tight to me. Guess not though or I'm sure GTOFreek would have mentioned it in his previous post. Think I would have your installer fill crankcase with proper amount of oil and hang and tilt it from engine hoist for period of time to check for rear main leak or leak at rear of pan over rear main bearing cap. Could save labor charges of having to pull engine again if you have a leak

Been busy. I'll comment on that later.

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

"Impossible to have all main and rod clearances exactly the same."

Not impossible......but highly unlikely on a polished shaft, and rods that were not? reconed,and pin clearence, are the stock rods floated?..... And pist to wall on a honed std bore.
All the writing is on the same angle. It may have been re written, or post composed.

Myself, I believe he did check to make sure things were in spec, but did not document it... till after...to make you feel warm,fuzzy and loved?

[Half-Inch Stud]

We should race our engine built sheets.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Wow, perfectly square deck with +.005" slugs. I call BS.

ALL Main & Rod journals and Bores massaged to get 0.0025" CLEARANCE....better be 0.0025" +\- .001". I call improper note taking, therefore BS



Example; my two engines were in complete dis-assy for Main Bore measurements down to Mitutoyo 0.0001" reading up-down & side-side. Side-side is a weel larger than up-down, soooo there could be two clearance measurements after bearing crush. Suppose the up-down clearance was recorded (math hidden) then perhaps the Mains are too loose?

Example; we measure mains and rod bore to also indicate proper bearing crush will occur. Well it is assurred, after some caps got their parting-line tuned in.

Is the builder on PY to make comment? He might be quite good!

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

missed the +.005 pistons

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

We should race our engine built sheets.

[pontibeast]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

Wow, perfectly square deck with +.005" slugs. I call BS.

ALL Main & Rod journals and Bores massaged to get 0.0025" CLEARANCE....better be 0.0025" +\- .001". I call improper note taking, therefore BS



Example; my two engines were in complete dis-assy for Main Bore measurements down to Mitutoyo 0.0001" reading up-down & side-side. Side-side is a weel larger than up-down, soooo there could be two clearance measurements after bearing crush. Suppose the up-down clearance was recorded (math hidden) then perhaps the Mains are too loose?

Example; we measure mains and rod bore to also indicate proper bearing crush will occur. Well it is assurred, after some caps got their parting-line tuned in.

Is the builder on PY to make comment? He might be quite good!

The engine was one I bought that was supposed to have only dyno time and when I went to have the new Stump Puller cam put in my mechanic noticed cam bearings were pretty beat up. I took to machine shop and then found rod and main bearings needed to be replaced and bores were .003 to narrow in the bottom of bores and deck was way off and off from side to side. Block was decked to pistons .005 in hole as I didn't want to go zero deck with a std bore block that I might well be able to rebuild later and then I could deck the block again. The numbers as far as clearances are all Greek to me which is why I wanted some of you guys to take a look but now I feel like he pencil whipped the build sheet because I asked him to provide one after he had done everything and it took him 2 days to send it to me. I am hoping like hell he did the work within proper tolerances and just doesn't usually do this detailed of a build sheet. It was dumb of him to not just be honest with me and say he didn't have one but I still have a good feel he did the work properly. He had the time to do it and was good about contacting me with issues he found as he was getting it together. I will just have to see how it does on the dyno and how it stays together. just for the record I am pretyy sure my build sheet would skull drag your build sheet HIS

[STEELCITYFIREBIRD]

I'd pass on the chassis dyno, unless it's for tuning, and just use the bootay dyno.... to get your costs down some.

Hope it all turns out well for you, I remember when you made your trek to get this engine thru PA.

I came across this : http://barringtonnh.global-free-clas...it6877431.html
yesterday, too good to be true, cause it ain't true. Caveat emptor!

[gtofreek]

Looking at that build sheet does raise some red flags.

Yes, it is highly unlikely that all 8 rods, and all 5 main bearings will have exactly .0025" clearance.

Seems highly unlikely that all 4 corners will be .005" in the hole with stock rods. Usually there is some difference in length, even just a few thousandth's, will make it hard to deck the block exactly for that. Usually crank stroke is not exactly the same on all rod throws.

The .011"- .012" rod side clearance is a little tight, but doable for a lower RPM engine providing the rods are in correctly. If he put #1 rod, in #2 cylinder, and visa-versa, then that will give tight rod side play, and if ran that way, the rods, crank, and bearings will burn up. But I'm guessing it's correct because I usually don't see much more than .015" with stock rods anyway. Might just double check that he realizes #1 cylinder is behind #2 in a way that doesn't offend him. I know how those machine shop guys can be! ;^]

Also wondering why he has .015" for oil ring gap, but nothing for the top rings. Also, .015" seems suspicious for a bore that is honed bigger than stock. Every .001" over the block is honed, will change the ring end gap by just over .003", so I would have expected to see an oil ring gap in the .025"-.030" range or more, if stock replacement rings were used.

I'm with others that think he just wrote down numbers the best he could remember, to make you happy. If he's been in business for a while, hopefully he cares about what he's doing, and did a good job.

I don't always write all this stuff down either on most builds. Not unless it's a special build or the customer requests it. But just because I don't write it down, doesn't mean I didn't check it. I always check this stuff, as it's just part of the job to do it right, so the customer, or ourselves don't have issues. I would hope this guy is the same way.

[pontibeast]

Thanks for all the help Paul. I am hoping the work was done correctly and it was poor memory on paperwork as well. He seemed to be experienced in Pontiac engines based on the discussions we had but I am learning what questions I should have asked and will know better next build to ask for a detailed build sheet and to learn more about the specs to ask for. I am still going to have my mechanic pull the timing cover and be sure the cam is installed at 107 or 108 before this gets installed and also to check for oil leaks as someone had mentioned before. I really appreciate all the advice and help you guys have offered throughout this long and sometimes stressfull process. The shop that has my car has a ton of work to do; new windshield and rear glass, new fuel sending unit, filters, pump, carb, distributor, new torque converter, driveshaft loop, rust repair under back seat, instal engine, set timing, run break in for a while even though it's a roller cam, new interior door skins and some more details i am sure I am missing. Shop owner thinks 3-4 weeks and there is some stuff I can try on my own depending on my back. If it works out like I hope the engine should be somewhere above 450HP and 525TQ. If it is and with all the other work being done then this will be the best the Lemans has run and looked in the 16 years I have had it and a paint job is the next thing thing on the list as I have all new front clip, fenders and a hood I got from a member here that just need a scuff and repaint. As long as the new engine holds together then the car is nearing my level of completion to be a nice driver with a stout engine. A new rear end(12 bolt) and trans are most likely to need a rebuild once the stock pieces fail but I will have to wait and see on that. I will post the chassis dyno numbers and I am mainly using dyno to maximize timing and fuel tuning as the compression has me concerned that the tune better be spot on.

[kyle_blake]

Ahhh yah your situation sounds exactly like mine back in 1999. I'm kinda angry still too. My build sheet was missing information. Under degree section of cam - straight up. Under heads - "check ok". Also I found my old builder liked to make their writing look BIG and WIDE and use BLOCK letters like they are being "really serious".

I too looked at my build sheet after, after I paid the bill and after dyno, and had to sit him down and ask some questions. With his dumb founded face he answered what he could and of course back then I knew no difference.

After the fact build sheet you say?

Does it show the same color ink, same type of pen, same darnkess level of ink? I mean really? Not one day during the build his style of writing wasn't off as he was tired or a he happened to pick up a different pen?

I learned that sometimes you get what you pay for. Or what you ask for? Some guys build engines a certain way, if you say I want a race engine, then maybe all the fields get entered and multiple pen colors get used. LOL

My dad taught me to take pride and document everything you do if someone is paying you for it. Billing, work notes etc. When you give a customer something you're proud of and take ownership of your work they'll bring you repeat business BECAUSE YOU WORKED ON IT LIKE IT WAS YOUR OWN. That build sheet fully filled out would totally help re-sale too one day. IMO

I wonder sometimes if that lesson isn't taught anymore?

Ok my rant is done.

Incidentally my engine still runs and well next time I build my own damn engine with pre-approved build sheet that I can be proud of damnit!

3-4 weeks you'll be out on the town and everything will be just fine!

[ID67goat]

Originally Posted by AG

Impossible to have all main and rod clearances exactly the same.

Not impossible if measured with plastigauge!

But let's hope not.....

[HWYSTR455]

I scribble notes in a note book throughout an assembly, and then later transfer it to a 'clean' sheet. I usually staple the note book pages to the back of it, just in case I have any questions for myself. (I don't always answer questions to my self truthfully!)

When I take measurements, some fall between increments on the scale, and when that happens, I go to the next decimal point when I write it down. To most that's cryptic, but at least I know. When I write it down on the blueprint sheet, I don't include that next digit, and round.

In a 'ticket' shop, where 'techs' work at different stations, a 'foreman' will do the homework for what clearances/work need to be done, writes it on a ticket, and includes it with the part as it's presented to the work station/tech. It's not like one guy is doing all the work, and it's not like all the parts go from station to station, or in order. So there can be a stack of oily, greasy tickets with notes on them, sometimes you can read, so you can see that it's not always possible to collect the 'actual' data/clearances/whatever. BUT, when it goes to the assembly station, the work should be checked, and recorded, by the assembler, and any parts not within spec should go back to the appropriate station for correction.

Yes, I know, perfect world and all. Most shops are not that organized, and load sometimes shadows proper documentation. When you're shopping for a potential machine shop, if it's clean, and organized, that's a pretty good indication of how the shop runs, and that makes it easier to do better work (in most cases). Or at least hopefully.

.

[TedRamAirII]

That's a really clean piece of paper! His shop must look like a Dr.'s Office, not one greasy fingerprint. He took a paper from the stack, and filled it out from his bad or made up memory so you would feel good. Do you think your engine actually has all those specs and clearances? Maybe he checked some of them? but certainly not all.

[Half-Inch Stud]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

I scribble notes in a note book throughout an assembly, and then later transfer it to a 'clean' sheet.

..........When I take measurements, some fall between increments on the scale, and when that happens, I go to the next decimal point when I write it down. To most that's cryptic....
.

Real world, as I do too.

Learned from TH400 builds to record observations during "Tear Down", then have an IDENTICAL sheet for BUILD. Customers are quite pleased to see the changes from tear-down to Buildup. Also NOTEs upon tear down of the defects, clutchpack health, and anomalous observation. And Notes on the Buildup specific to the application; converter reco, urethane or solid mount reco, shift point reco, etc.

So, the engine build has lots of measures to record while the heads have their own sort of detail.

[superdutybob]

I didn't read all the responses so forgive me if I am late off the tree.

First thing that caught my eye was that all the main and rod clearances were exactly 0.0025". Those clearances are NEVER that consistent. That is a sign, to me, of somebody that did a half ass job of measuring.

Did they centerline the cam? I didn't see it.

It looked more like a parts list than a build sheet.