[goldeneyee]

I looked at this Ebay car a number of years ago in Columbus Ohio and just couldn't make heads or tails of the story I was told. Owner claims the SD 421 came in the trunk which I have a hard time believing. I know a handful of 421s were passed out just prior to the Nationals in Indianapolis and I don't ever believe Pontiac would have given one to an unknown Bonneville owner to race. Read the ad and I think you'll be as perplexed as me. Perhaps, a member can fill in the blanks......http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1961-...item35b931232a

[Stuart]

Nice looking car, but it sounds like a tall tale to me. Like you said, in 1961 they weren't handing those engines out to just anybody, and even if they did why put one in a Bonneville convertible?

He mentions the block number 538181 which doesn't really mean a lot - all 1961-1962 389 and 421 blocks (including super dutys) had the same casting number.

The eight lug wheels are from a later year car as well.

I thought this was interesting - he says, Factory four-speed - all numbers match and then two lines later says this is not the original transmission that came in the car. He already said the engine is not original either.

[goldeneyee]

Stu: I just reread the ad and your use of the words "tall tale" might very well be an understatement.

[Steve Barcak]

It is a nice looking car for sure and who would not be proud to drive that?
However, he use of the word "original'? it has a repaint, does not have original eng or trans, bumpers have been replated, int is not original either.
What qualifies this nice looking and running car as original?

Also, am pretty sure Pontiac did not have that tri tone color combo. Am away from my interior and color books but, if you ordered gunmetal int, it did not include blue.

Still, nice car!

[Stuart]

One of the other '61 guys here in Minneapolis has a Bonneville convertible in the same color combination - it's trim #253, or #283 if the car has bucket seats. You can't really see the interior but this is the car: http://www.retro.net/db/1961_Pontiac...rtible/1273/1/ (this photo is from the POCI national meet in 2001, as it happens my car is parked next to it.) I don't recall if it has blue armrests on the doors like the one in the auction, though. For that matter, now that I look at it more closely I wonder if the seats in the auction car have been recovered...the texture doesn't look quite right for OEM leather.

[Doug]

Weren't the '61 421 SD's made up out of a 389 using a 3" main stroker crank available over-the-counter?

[tom s]

No Doug.You had to buy the 421 block crank rods and pistons over the counter.Tom

[pfilean]

I believe the general consenus is the the 421, although it did get the same casting number as the 389, used the four bolt main version used in the 389 super duty and then got 3.25 mains with the stroker crank along with a bore job.

Is a nice looking car and probably worth the current price but there are wide variations amoung people as to what is "original". Especially if it is a dealer making the claims. Just pop that hood and look at all the non-stock pieces. Even a 421 in 1961 didn't get that stuff. And I think I agree with the doubt about the seats. Seems to me that all 61Bonne converts got leather and these have a kind of vinyl look to me.

But a test drive would be fun.

[goldeneyee]

Aren't we all missing something. Where's the PHS to document all of seller's claims. It would certainly confirm exactly what the car was equipped with when delivered.

[65WJ]

Gorgeous car. I would like to crawl in the hood and lood at the back of the block by the distributor.

Possably a fabricated story (no paperwork) to sell at a higher price.

Name dropping is easy, proving your claim, not so easy.

patrick

[MOJO Catalina]

Don't you just hate when people paint over rust without sindblasting, or at least scraping? And to use gloss paint...

[60man]

Good grief !!!....that is just like my old 61 Bonni rag top. ....and Steve it had that very same interior in it and same exterior color. It was a 425A car with 3 on the tree with buckets...I stuck a four speed in it along with a #10 cam and "Head package" heads and wound up dual quads..OH...and 4.10's...on the street!
Damn that car was fun to drive and burned a lot of other brands ....

[Ragtop Man]

Tell one lie, be prepared to tell two more to cover it up. Mighty used looking for 15K. Show me the PHS that says this car came this way and I'll send you a 6-pack.

Pontiac did not put engines in 'trunks'...unless they were trying to make the car look like it was waxed with a bag of washers.

The interior looks a lot more like a '62 than a '61 to me, but it has been a while since I have studied the trims side by side. Seems like a bunch of hooey to me, but a decent Bonnie to start a project with, anyway.

BOB

[JC61]

The center ( light blue ) section on the bucket seat backrest is upside down.
The undercarrige should look like this.

[goldeneyee]

Question for TomS. The only 61 421 dual quad sd Pontiac that I ever saw was Mickey Thompson's 61 Cat at the 61 Indianapolis Nationals. To the best of my recollection that was the only one there. The rest of the big time 61 Pontiacs were running the 368hp engines. Keep in mind that this was labor day of 1961 and the 62 model year was only a weeks away. In later years I heard that a handful of 61 421 engines were passed out to the "chosen few" racers but never saw or for that matter heard of another 61 421 car drag racing. Under those circumstances, I'm not sure that you or I could, at that time, order the 421 parts over the counter at your local Pontiac dealer.

[tom s]

If I see Fritz this sunday I will ask if they got a complete engine or parts to put one together.I know the 61 and early 62 421 SDs used the 306 heads.Also the 61s used a pair of 3010 carbs with the air chokes on them.I really did not get involved with Tyree and M/T untill 63.I was racing a 62 4cyc 4 speed lemans at that time.Tom

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by JC61

The center ( light blue ) section on the bucket seat backrest is upside down.
The undercarrige should look like this.

The color of the primer on the underside depended on where it was built - California cars used red oxide, most if not all of the other plants used black.

[60man]

Can't vouch on under car paint on a 61 but my Cali 60 Cat was body color....
The colors on seats looks right...but...mine had white on sides with I believe some silver pipeing..

[tom s]

my 61 Ventura was blk.Tom

[JC61]

Originally Posted by Stuart

The color of the primer on the underside depended on where it was built - California cars used red oxide, most if not all of the other plants used black.

Mine was built in Linden, NJ and when the undercoationg was removed it revealed red oxide paint .