[Safari Larry]

This is continuation of another thread where we got off topic discussing Fisher Body and Pontiac assembly plants.

Originally Posted by CATBIRD

Larry.....Linden for sure was BOP. I have also seen Buicks and Oldsmobiles from Wilmington, Framingham, and Kansas City. Not 100% sure about the others. I doubt that Pontiac plant produced anything but Pontiacs. As I mentioned in the previous post, I can only confirm that all the 1965 bodies at Linden were painted there. I'm sorry to have hi-jacked this thread with this virtual cesspool of knowledge! Perhaps we should start a new thread just about old factory history and the related topics. I for one have a ton of questions about this stuff......John

John, I also have a ton of questions about this stuff and have been doing some research for a few years. I got what info I could from John Sawruk before he passed on. Neither he nor his associates knew much about it but were quite interested and helpful in digging up data (FB and Pontiac assembly plant observed on Pontiacs).

I learned most from Todd Crews, the POCI 1957 Tech Advisor. My collection of data verified things Todd told me, such as all 1957 convertible bodies were made in the Pontiac MI plant, and that all Safari bodies were built in the Cleveland plant. I also learned from Todd that the Pontiac MI assembly plant was the "home" plant and was the only plant that built only Pontiacs. All the other Pontiac assembly plants were Buick/Olds/Pontiac plants. Not only did my collection of data verify what Todd told me but I learned a lot more from it -- such as all 1955 convertible bodies were made in the FB "L" plant (and no one has been able to verify location of the "L" plant). Since there was no Pontiac assembly plant there, then the bodies had to be shipped to assembly plants. Same thing for the Cleveland plant or any FB plant not co-located with a Pontiac (or B-O-P) assembly plant. There's more, see my data and see the conclusions at bottom.

You'll see that I have virtually no '59-60 data. That's because I didn't get any -- likely because I got most of my data from folks in the Yahoo 1950's Pontiac Forum, and there were few '59-60 owners. It would be interesting to get some 59-60 data to see what we can learn. So all you 59-60 owners, give me your data. Earlier years would be helpful too, espacially 58 and especially any year station wagon or convertible. I need

• Model NO from the FB data plate on the firewall
• Body NO from the FB data plate , and
• Pontiac assembly plant -- For 1958 and earlier, first letter of the car serial number on the door jam. For 1959-60, the (only) letter in the serial number.

Every Pontiac assembly plant had a FB plant located close to it. I understand that some had the FB plant and car assembly plant in the same building but walled off and treated like two separate companies, even though GM "owned" FB. Some plants apparently were located far enough apart that bodies had to be trucked to the assembly plant. I think we're talking in the order of 100 cars per day so that's a bunch of trucking.

John, your info about 59-60 convertible bodies being made at the Lansing (LA) plant is interesting. It appears that convertible bodies were made at Lansing from some year up though 55, then they moved convertible body production to Pontiac MI for 56, 57, and maybe 58. Then they moved convertible body production back to Lansing in 59. As I recall from maps, Lansing is about 60 mi from Pontiac MI, close enough to transport bodies by truck.

[60 Cat]

Orig 1 owner 60 cat convert (prior to me)
South Gate car (S)

05D
60-2167 Body LA 14191
Trim 14 Paint K
ACC JX


What accesory does JX stand for?

[Poncho60]

1960 Ventura Vista.....43K original miles....coronado red w white top

"P"
Paint LC
Trim 243
Body PO 4171 ??????
Acc......B..F..KX..I..JX

[Safari Larry]

OK, added those two to the list. Next...

Correction to what I need and misstated in my first post in this thread:

• "STYLE" from the FB data plate on the firewall
• "BODY" from the FB data plate, should be two letters followed by a number
• Pontiac assembly plant -- For 1958 and earlier, first letter of the car serial number on the door jam. For 1959-60, the (only) letter in the serial number (VIN).

The STYLE code tells the series and body style. The two letters in the BODY code tell which FB plant the body was manufactured in.

The JX code was for padded dash in '58 and was likely had the same meaning in '60. The codes are in the "Accessorizer" and I have them (on the web site) for 1955-58 only. Note that only codes that affect body build are stamped on the FB data plate. Options installed in Pontiac assembly plant which do not affect body build will not show up in the ACC list. For example, power steering, power brakes, engine options, etc. will not show up on the data plate.

[60 Cat]

Since it does have padded dash it would appear the same JX code was still in use in 1960

[CATBIRD]

Larry.....Just for the record: 159K1O86....LA349 Catalina convertible. Parts car 159W?????....BW????? Catalina 4dr sedan. Poncho60..... your codes break down as follows: B = heater, F = backup lamps, KX = laytex foam-front seat only, I = tinted glass-all windows, JX = dash pad. If anyone needs the codes for 59-60 I can provide them. As you can see these were all items that the Fisher Body employees needed to know to finish the body shell. Keep in mind that, with some overlap, options were items that replaced something, while accessories were add-ons. Power breaks were an option over manual breaks. Back-up lamps were an accessory, as was a radio and much of what we now take for granted on todays cars.
Larry.....I think we've opened a can of worms here. It would be nice if someone who worked at these plants back then would chime in. If someone started working in the mid 50's, say when they were 18 or 19, they would be in their 70's and probably not on this forum. One thing I can say, the trim tags were used differently in each plant. For example, my Lansing convertible had no acc codes at all, but it did come with heater and back-up lamps. My Wilmington car had a "BA" code which was a sales group that included the heater, foam seat, and back-up lamps. This is fun, but I think we are going to drive ourselves crazier than we already are......John

[Keith Seymore]

Larry - please check the link in your original post. It goes to a reply of some sort.

Originally Posted by CATBIRD

It would be nice if someone who worked at these plants back then would chime in. If someone started working in the mid 50's, say when they were 18 or 19, they would be in their 70's and probably not on this forum

There have been some interviews conducted, although not necessarily the exact timeframe you are looking for. Perhaps you saw the article by Eric White (gtoric) in the last three publications of SmokeSignals; Eric interviewed Carl Papke, who worked in Pontiac in the early 60's through early 70's.

I also had a friend who started there in 1970 but he unfortunately passed away in the last year.

We also have located another employee who recalls building the Swiss Cheese cars in '63. He has retired and moved to Arizona and so Eric and I have been working to re-connect with him and get as much information as possible.

As an aside, I also have worked in nearly every GM Full Size Truck plant over the last 31 years, and will be launching product in my first passenger car plant (Detroit - Hamtramck) this fall!

Originally Posted by CATBIRD

This is fun, but I think we are going to drive ourselves crazier than we already are......John

Speaking from the perspective of the '64/'65 guys - I think you're right!

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

Every Pontiac assembly plant had a FB plant located close to it. I understand that some had the FB plant and car assembly plant in the same building but walled off and treated like two separate companies, even though GM "owned" FB. Some plants apparently were located far enough apart that bodies had to be trucked to the assembly plant. I think we're talking in the order of 100 cars per day so that's a bunch of trucking.

This is true.

When I started at the truck plant in Flint (in 1979), there was a wall that separated the old Chevrolet portion of the plant from the Fisher body side. That wall is still there today, although there is a large opening which allows fork truck and pedestrian traffic to pass through.

For the Buick builds in Flint, bodies were built on the north side of town and then trucked to the final assembly plant completely across town!

The Pontiac plant was somewhat unique in that they had the conveyor system with moved bodies over to the Final assembly plant, a fairly good distance but still in an enclosed tunnel.

K

[Keith Seymore]

One more comment and then I'll quit for a while:

Eric has also started a thread listing the various GMAD assembly plants and the nameplates they produced.

You can find it here:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=614225

Again, the model years seem a little later than what you are interested in but it might provide some correlation with the '59/'60 timeframe (the model mix may have not changed much in those three or four years).

Additionally, you might contact Eric with any new information you find and see if he wants to expand his list to include your model years of interest as well.

K

[Safari Larry]

Originally Posted by CATBIRD

Keep in mind that, with some overlap, options were items that replaced something, while accessories were add-ons.

I've wondered about that, thanks for clarifying.

the trim tags were used differently in each plant.

I've heard that -- and also the Pontiac assembly plants weren't consistent in how they did things.

This is fun, but I think we are going to drive ourselves crazier than we already are......John

Don't crap out on me John! They take off my straight-jacket off each day so I can type to you.

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

Larry - please check the link in your original post. It goes to a reply of some sort.

OK, I see it -- but don't know how to fix it.

Thanks Keith for all the good info -- hope you catch up with the Swiss Cheese guy. I did read the Smoke Signals articles with considerable interest. My interest is in the years before PMD records are available (pre '61). The articles gave a lot of insight into how the Pontiac MI plant operated. My original interest was in the tri-5 years but it spread like a cancer.

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

Yep - ditto. Around here, if you don't learn something new everyday then you are not paying attention!

As far as the link - I believe the original thread you are refering to is this one:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=621340

Good luck on your search for '59/'60 info and if you are ever back this way I would be happy to show you around the Pontiac facility (much of the real estate is still there). I did a tour last fall for an enthusiast from Ohio and he was awestruck at the size of the factories here.

Thanks,

K

[Safari Larry]

Now why didn't I think of that, simply post the correct address?

Thanks for the invite Keith! Wish I could take you up on it and perhaps someday I will, it's not a quick/cheap trip from CA. I just read your "story" thread in your signature block, nice work -- an interesting piece of history that is now recorded for everyone to see. It's a great tribute to your dad.

[CATBIRD]

Larry.....went to my club meeting last night. I remembered that one of our club members had just recently bought a 60 wagon. I asked him about it but he wasn't sure of the numbers. Tonight he E-mailed me pictures of his vin and body plate. It would appear that my suspicions were correct. Early Bonneville Safari from Kansas with vin 760KXXXX. Body from Euclid "EP625." I know of another 1960 not too far from me, a two seat Catalina from Southgate, but won't see him until spring. I know that one car doesn't etch this in stone, but it does seem to indicate that Euclid became the wagon build plant after Cleveland......John

[Safari Larry]

John, I think you're onto something. I have one example of 58 wagon with body made in FB Cleveland plant -- so I suspect it's very likely that all 58 wagon bodies were made there as in previous years. We have no 59 examples so don't know about that year.

I would agree, it seems like FB wagon body production was moved from Cleveland to Euclid in 59 or 60. Need more data.

I'll add that 60 wagon to the list.

[twooldgoats]

1960 Catalina 2dr HT:

STYLE 60-2137

BODY BC 413

Pontiac assembly plant S

TRIM 210

PAINT CC

ACC DM

[Steve Barcak]

Larry,

As I think you know, I have over a dozen 59/60s here including 3 wagons. It would be pretty time consuming getting tag data from all of them but, I could do a few of them if it would be really helpful for you. Among the wagons- 59 Catalina, 60 Bonneville, 60 Catalina.
Let me know.
Steve

Hosting-
Thur-Sun April 8-11, 2010 12th annual Pontiac Heaven Phoenix www.pontiacheaven.org
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Make plans to attend now.

[Safari Larry]

Thanks twooldgoats for the 60 Cat' info, I'll add it to the list.

Steve, the info on the 59/60 wagons would be quite helpful. To repeat, here's what I need.

* "STYLE" from the FB data plate on the firewall
* "BODY" from the FB data plate, should be two letters followed by a number
* Pontiac assembly plant -- For 1958 and earlier, first letter of the car serial number on the door jam. For 1959-60, the (only) letter in the serial number (VIN).

[Safari Larry]

This is a reply to a comment made by CATBIRD over on another thread where he says.

Originally Posted by CATBIRD

Larry.....1959 and 1960 convertible bodies were Lansing made and shipped out. My 1959 Catalina is Lansing/Kansas City, and I Know of three 1960 Lansing/Southgate cars, one Catalina and two Bonnevilles. My thought is that it was cheaper to build special bodies in one plant and ship them out, than to have expensive fixtures (jigs) in all the satellite plants. I would think that Pontiac, being the home plant would be able to build all body styles. I just recently aquired a 1959 Fisher "Body in White" assembly manual for all "A" body cars, both Chevrolet and Pontiac. An interesting read, but it seems to indicate that convertibles and wagons were much more complicated to put together......John

Forgot to mention this practice stopped for convertibles somethime prior to 1965. I'm aware of a 65 Bonneville Kansas City/Kansas City, and I personally watched several 65 convertibles being built at Fisher Body Linden N.J.

Thanks CATBIRD for the info. Had I looked at my data, I would have known 60 convertible bodies were made at Lansing. The Pontiac convertible and station wagon bodies were built alongside Chevys which had a lot in common with the Pontiac bodies. I suspect you are correct about building bodies in one plant and shipping them was cost effective. I think that's why those models weren't made in some years at the Pontiac MI FB plant.

1956-58 Pontiac convertible bodies were made at the Pontiac MI FB plant. 1955 and 1959-60 convertible bodies were built at Lansing. I wonder what the story behind that? Maybe the switch to Pontiac MI plant didn't work out? Then some year later they did convertible body build at all the plants like other models.

I updated my list of observed codes, with info from MOJO and 60 SHARK. Thanks, guys.

What is a "Body in White" assembly manual?

CATBIRD, could I add your 59 Cat' 'vert codes to the list? I have very little 59 data and would like to get more, especially convertibles and wagons.

[CATBIRD]

Larry.....Yes you can ad my car to the list. The trim tag is as follows:

STYLE 2167 BODY LA 329
TRIM 13 PAINT K
ACC

Interesting that they only used the number 13 instead of the full 213 for the trim, and no code for the convertible top color. Also there were no accessory codes, although the car had back-up lamps and heater/defroster.
This was a very early build car, and I've found several unusual items. The VIN is 159K1086. Probably built on the first or second day of production. In addition to the trim tag annomalities, the block was cast on July 30 1958. The Tri-Power intake has the correct casting number, but no date anywhere. The bellhousing was cast in early August. There is no engine unit number, as this was a decal on the driver side valve cover. The full VIN is stamped on the front passenger side of the block, followed by a stamped letter "C."
With regards to the missing engine unit number, I thought this to be odd. The shop manual, which was printed in 1958, and the 1960 Master Parts Catalog indicate that the engine code should also be there. My research has told me otherwise. The June 1959 "Pontiac Craftsman Service News" states, and I quote:
"The production engine number is located on a machined pad on the right hand face of the block immediately below the cylinder head starting with production engine number 255823"
"The "decal used to identify early engines will be discontinued. The "letter code" (see 1959 Shop Manual, page 6-0 is now stamped in front of the production engine number. By referring to the "Letter Code" column in Fig. 6-1 (1959 Shop Manual), the major engine components can be determined."
Seems strange that they originally wanted to use a stamped EU#, but started with the decal and later switched to the stamping. I guess they found that the decal was too perishable. Duh!
I found it interesting that on one of MOJO's tags that Atlanta "A" in 1959 became Doraville "D" in 1960, but Fisher Body stayed "BA"......John

[CATBIRD]

Larry....."Body in White" was General Motors term for the complete body shell, with doors, main dash panel and trunk lid attached, up to the point that it entered the paint booth. This was Fisher Body's primary responsibility, although they had many more. I'm sure you are aware, but some may not be, that full size Chevrolets and Pontiacs were considered "A" bodies, up until 1964 when Tempests were designated "A" bodies and full size became "B" bodies. The manual that I recently aquired is the assemble manual for that part of Fisher Body's responsibility. Basically it describes the welding together of the various panels from the floor pans on up. It lists the different welders that were needed for each operation, the types of seam sealer and how to apply them, the fixtures to hold the subassemblies in position and interchangable parts. Although Chevrolets were built in their own plants, the interchangable parts were needed in the BOP plants since "B" and some "C" bodies were also assembled there. If you look in the body section of your Master Parts Catalog, you can see exploded illustrations of body panels. The assembly manual shows similar illustrations, but with panels put together with the placement and number of spot welds etc......John