[ta man]

I'm still waiting to see a stock 10 second hellcat

[JLMounce]

They won't run a 10 straight off the showroom floor. They don't have enough tire. There's plenty of examples of 10 second cars with nothing more than a drag radial and some seat time though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGFNCCjKUbA

[HWYSTR455]

Not quite, but these are brand new, and new drivers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70XNfofqBVE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1j5mU-O2yow

This guy does 10s in a Hellcat Challenger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIvDFyIqWjA

You get someone out there that can drive and it's not unheard of for them to go into the 10s. Exhaust and program, prep them for launching, and they can dip into the 9s. I know, have a friend that did it. He's now building a wicked Z51. He's the kind of guy who buys a brand new car and jerks the engine out to go through it.

.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

..There's plenty of examples of 10 second cars with nothing more than a drag radial and some seat time though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGFNCCjKUbA

Tree-d me!

Then there's the tuner ones, like the Hennessy's. They do an 850 and 2 1000hp versions.

http://hennesseyperformance.com/vehicles/dodge/charger/

.

[JLMounce]

It's just about how you want to spend your dollars. If you want an all around car that runs deep in the 11's, is comfortable, handles relatively well, there's a decent number of options.

Z06, Hellcat, GT500 a few Audi's BMW M cars etc. Speaking specifically about the Z, Hellcat and GT500 you're looking at a 60-80k price of entry. But, how much would it take me to bring my 1969 Firebird up to that level? By the time you're done buying parts and assuming you can do a lot of the work yourself, it's going to cost near the same.

I'd like to get my Firebird there, but for now I'm having fun with a mild 455 and some slightly stiffer springs/shocks.

[ta man]

I ran a Hellcat last time at the track it ran high 11's..I guess what I meant I still haven't seen a stock Hellcat run 10's in person.Most cars don't run the number....

[AG]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

It's just about how you want to spend your dollars. If you want an all around car that runs deep in the 11's, is comfortable, handles relatively well, there's a decent number of options.

Z06, Hellcat, GT500 a few Audi's BMW M cars etc. Speaking specifically about the Z, Hellcat and GT500 you're looking at a 60-80k price of entry. But, how much would it take me to bring my 1969 Firebird up to that level? By the time you're done buying parts and assuming you can do a lot of the work yourself, it's going to cost near the same.

I'd like to get my Firebird there, but for now I'm having fun with a mild 455 and some slightly stiffer springs/shocks.

I could get my bone stock '68 Bird deep into the 11s for 12K with motor, trans, driveshaft and rearend no problem.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by AG

I could get my bone stock '68 Bird deep into the 11s for 12K with motor, trans, driveshaft and rearend no problem.

I didn't say it would take Hellcat money to get a car to run as fast as it in a straight line. What I said was that if you wanted the full hellcat experience from an old car it would.

That's the point I've been trying to make. Cars like the Hellcat, Z06 and GT500 run fast in a straight line, then back it up with a lot of creature comfort and are also great when you start adding corners.

You can get old cars to do one of those things out of that list for not a crazy amount of money. When you want to do all of those things like the newer cars do, that's when it starts to get really expensive. The short list is

Aftermarket or modified frame
Aftermarket suspension
overdrive transmission
Worked or aftermarket rear end
engine work for 600-700 hp
custom interior
custom sound system
Aftermarket brakes
Wheels/tires

So take a stock first gen firebird that is driver quality and doesn't really need anything else. Call it 14K? We'll add to that 12k to get the drivetrain working for an 11 second pass. We're up to 26k now. Well we still want to be able to handle some corners too with the same level of competency that we handle the drag strip. So you go coil-overs at the 4 corners with matching sway bars along with new steering bits and aftermarket brakes to round it out. There's another 6K, so now we're into the low 30's. The modified suspension and larger brakes mean you can't run 15" wheels anymore. You're going to need to run a large enough wheel in the back to plant that power on a street drag radial, that means a mini-tub, add another 2k. Big wheels and tires are expensive add another 3-8K depending on size, manufacturing technique and tires chosen.

You're now hovering around the 40,000 mark on your car and that's assuming you're doing 100% of the labor. We haven't even addressed interior accouterments yet. Some will say the stock interior is fine, but again, we're comparing making an old car just like a new one. So you redo the entire interior with modern sound deadening, new seats, upholstry, stereo, gauges.

You can see where I'm going with this. By the time you add up all the costs associated with building an older car to do the same exact thing as well as a new muscle car off the showroom, the costs start to even out.

[Fast Floridian]

I drive my car not because its fast but because how the engine sounds when I mat the gas. I love the look of the car and I love seeing people face when we pull the tires off the ground and I love saying we don't use turbo nitrous or supercharger. I love telling people my motor is 40 years old. I love putting the car in second and feeling the torque. I would rather drive a slower pontiac than the fastest chevy or ford. With what we know about performance we can and will easily improve even the new technology. I loved smoking a Hellcat at our track. I love scaring the hell out of a copo camaro. I choose to drive real street Historical American Muscle. PONTIAC POWER

[TCSGTO]

Originally Posted by superdutybob

and when you get your car deep into the 10's it won't be nearly as comfortable or streetable as these new cars are. technology my friend!

Not as comfortable, nearly as streetable, and a lot more fun.

[TedRamAirII]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buNOLsd7jzA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbybhFvkcDQ

[ta man]

Originally Posted by Fast Floridian

I drive my car not because its fast but because how the engine sounds when I mat the gas. I love the look of the car and I love seeing people face when we pull the tires off the ground and I love saying we don't use turbo nitrous or supercharger. I love telling people my motor is 40 years old. I love putting the car in second and feeling the torque. I would rather drive a slower pontiac than the fastest chevy or ford. With what we know about performance we can and will easily improve even the new technology. I loved smoking a Hellcat at our track. I love scaring the hell out of a copo camaro. I choose to drive real street Historical American Muscle. PONTIAC POWER

Yes!.......I'm always proud to say I run a Pontiac engine!

[TCSGTO]

When I started this topic I wasn't thinking about new vs old but I'm enjoying the direction it's taking and the points being made on both sides.
The new cars will keep progressing and the old cars will continue to benefit from the newer tech and improve.
In my original post I mentioned my car ran low 14's stock and that was very respectable at the time. It ended up running near 11 flat with tall gears and idled at 700 rpm. Thats pretty commonplace now but 20 years ago that would have been insane performance.
11's are the new 14's and before long it'll be 10's, then 9's,....

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by Garry Sr

Blow a trans on one of these newer cars and it's time to refinance the house.

$3-1/2k refinances a house? The drop-outs from Corvettes and SS are around $2k more.

http://www.chevrolet.com/performance...ic-4l75-e.html

[AG]

I still want a Hellcat

[ta man]

Originally Posted by AG

I still want a Hellcat

Not this guy..for that money I'd buy a couple classic Pontiacs...I miss my 455 4 speed 76..

[JLMounce]

I like the hellcat. For the longest time I didn't get the allure of the car. Then I ride in and drive one. Now I get it.

You won't see me giving up my Pontiac for it though. In addition to, maybe. Not a replacement if though.

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by TCSGTO

When I started this topic I wasn't thinking about new vs old but I'm enjoying the direction it's taking and the points being made on both sides.
The new cars will keep progressing and the old cars will continue to benefit from the newer tech and improve.
In my original post I mentioned my car ran low 14's stock and that was very respectable at the time. It ended up running near 11 flat with tall gears and idled at 700 rpm. Thats pretty commonplace now but 20 years ago that would have been insane performance.
11's are the new 14's and before long it'll be 10's, then 9's,....

Truth ^^^ Power adders changed the game. You take a 450 h.p. motor, add boost 15 psi now you got 900 h.p. I am amazed what boost can do!

[mgarblik]

The P100D Ludicrous Mode Tesla is the one I rode in. Quick and fast, yes. Incredible traction with AWD and traction control, yes. Sensation of incredible acceleration, only in your chest. The other senses are completely neutered in this car. No smell, no sound, no taste. It is just so totally sanitary, I'm just not into it. Again, more like a ride at an amusement park than driving a fast car. You punch a bunch of buttons on the giant dash IPad, and push the go pedal to the floor. The car does the rest. Not for me. I still like to drive my cars. I absolutely appreciate the technology, I think I am 30 years too old for it. Also short about 130K to buy one!

[Tom Vaught]

^^^, The Mustang Guys figured out how to make their wimpy SB Ford a Street Killer Wolf in Sheep's Clothing in the 90s.
BOOST (everything else basically stayed the same, CID, available heads, engine design, exhaust, weight of the vehicle).

They went from a "I didn't bother to show up last night" to "I kicked some serious butt last night".

I have been pulling for the Pontiac Guys to be in that same position at some point, for years. Running against the new vehicles as both vehicles might have the same boost but the Pontiac engine is normally larger and therefore the force on the pistons (BMEP will be a lot greater, along with the stroke helping too) for the same boost levels. You can "do a George": "I only run 12 psi of boost".

Tom V.

ps Luhn Performance made 862 HP (on Steve Morris Dyno) with a basic 455 2-bolt main block, stock crank, barely dusted off E-Heads, Torquer II intake, 750 cfm blow-thru carb, and as said 13 psi of boost.