[thebuick]

in my Driveway ,, I really enjoy my daily driver 14 SHO 365 HP. Then there is my need for speed car with my 16 RS3 Big Pony Power. then my Sunday driver 67 bird 400 always enjoyable to cruise in .eventually the HP will be reduced by the Feds but until then.ENJOY

[stickboy]

I had my car out last weekend and even though its only 600hp, it is still unsafe to drive in the wrong hands. 2-3 half throttle powershift at 4500 puts it sideways. Not so good down at the car cruise with the grabby RXT clutch, takes a bit of finesse to move carefully through the moms and kids. But there were easily some low 10 high 9 sec cars there that you wouldn't even know.

I do like the thought of a newer luxury car with a bunch of power though - the big Caddy if I ever played the lottery... for an old man like me - gonna be 50 in a few weeks.

Be safe out there

[David Jones]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

Get a TESLA, they eat Hellcats.

For very short periods of time they do. Bury your foot in the "throttle" for to long and the computer steps in and cuts the power back. Drag strip runs are ok. Car and Driver tried to get a lap time at VIR in one recently and they couldn't get a complete lap in without it cutting back....but it was fast when it went. Full throttle kills the range too........

[Nicks67GTO]

If you want to set a musclecar up to compete with the new high end stuff you can do it but you better have $50K+ to throw at an already done car and be ready to cut it up to fit huge tires, coilovers etc. Furthermore just because you can run a faster 1/4 mile on a prepped racetrack doesn't mean you have the better car. Most of the new stuff goes fast in a straight line, then hammers corners just as well if not better. I decided with my GTO that i'm going to just build a fast street car that I can drive anywhere, take the the 1/4 mile, road racing or autoXing and just have fun. Forget about winning any of that stuff and forget trying to compete with a new car platforms......now my 70 Chevelle i'm planning to build in a few years....that might be a whole other story

[mgarblik]

I got my drivers license in 1974. For a car guy, could there ever been a worse period in automotive history? I am happy the newer cars perform the way they do and must admit I never thought this day would ever come again. I do agree that they can be very dangerous for inexperienced drivers. They handle so well and are so fast you just don't realize how fast you are going until things finally come unhinged. When I drive my 62 Catalina my wife is constantly asking me how fast I am going and to slow down. Most of the time I am going under 70 MPH. Her 2011 Mustang GT "felt slower" at 110 MPH. It's really an entirely different sensation. The old cars are still really fun.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

If you want to set a musclecar up to compete with the new high end stuff you can do it but you better have $50K+ to throw at an already done car and be ready to cut it up to fit huge tires, coilovers etc. Furthermore just because you can run a faster 1/4 mile on a prepped racetrack doesn't mean you have the better car. Most of the new stuff goes fast in a straight line, then hammers corners just as well if not better. I decided with my GTO that i'm going to just build a fast street car that I can drive anywhere, take the the 1/4 mile, road racing or autoXing and just have fun. Forget about winning any of that stuff and forget trying to compete with a new car platforms......now my 70 Chevelle i'm planning to build in a few years....that might be a whole other story

This.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Firebird and I'm never going to sell it. It is not anywhere near the level of performance, refinement or efficiency of the modern cars I've owned. Not that you can't do it with these older cars, but you're talking about completely re-engineering them and at the end of the day, it's going to be cheaper to just go by a Z06 Corvette or the Hellcat.

That doesn't take anything away from these old cars, it's just the progress is a continuous march forward.

[6D9]

I respect and like the fast new muscle but I truly love whooping them!! Most think my pretty carb'd motor is slow. Someday I may go the turbo ls route but for now will hold out.

[Tom Vaught]

6D9 So we see that you have a 1969 Camaro with a 491 BBC engine, what Pontiacs do you have?

Tom V.

[6D9]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

6D9 So we see that you have a 1969 Camaro with a 491 BBC engine, what Pontiacs do you have?

Tom V.

I dont have one. I have a good buddy with a 66 Tempest(GTO clone) that I help him work on. Fun learning about the different makes...all Detroit muscle.

[Tom Vaught]

Lot of Chebby, Ford, and Chrysler Haters in the race section. Not so much so in the Street section. People have put Pontiac engines in Triumphs and Chebby Trucks, and even Vettes in the early days.

Glad you are learning about Pontiacs. Some things are similar to the Chebby stuff but the Pontiac engine is much more like the old Ford 427 engines in bore size, bore spacing, crankshaft design, etc.

Welcome aboard. Know you have already posted 75 times.

Tom V.

[6D9]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Lot of Chebby, Ford, and Chrysler Haters in the race section. Not so much so in the Street section. People have put Pontiac engines in Triumphs and Chebby Trucks, and even Vettes in the early days.

Glad you are learning about Pontiacs. Some things are similar to the Chebby stuff but the Pontiac engine is much more like the old Ford 427 engines in bore size, bore spacing, crankshaft design, etc.

Welcome aboard. Know you have already posted 75 times.

Tom V.

Thanks Tom. I started a car club a few years ago and wanted mixed variety of cars. Its a blast with all different makes and models. We all help each other out. I stumbled on this site when getting info on Q jets from Cliff and the Continental converter from him as well.

[455TA]

I've had plenty of new "muscle cars" and new vettes play with my 80 TA at the track. Beaten new 5.0 Mustangs, new Hemi Chargers and Challengers, 2004 body style mustang gt's on Spray. All of these cars had plenty of Bolt ons and such. Most of these cars run 13 seconds flat stock which isn't terrible, but we had cars running that in the 70's stock.. you'd think technology would have made them faster. Haven't had one truly outrun me yet. Even a couple of turbo LS cars didn't outrun me. My car is fuel injected and drives just like a modern car. I will say the 6th generation Camaro is one bad car - they run in the 11's NA from the factory, which is way better than the 5th generation camaro. The new Hellcat is one bad car, but you have to sit back and realize it's not NA. Same goes for the zr1 corvette and the new z06. I respect them and I respect the guys that wrench on them, but I won't say theyre faster - especially for the money. I have no where near the amount of money in my car as a new corvette - let alone ones that are modded, and I still can hang with or outrun most of them. I'll stick to my Poncho.

[Nicks67GTO]

Originally Posted by 455TA

I've had plenty of new "muscle cars" and new vettes play with my 80 TA at the track. Beaten new 5.0 Mustangs, new Hemi Chargers and Challengers, 2004 body style mustang gt's on Spray. All of these cars had plenty of Bolt ons and such. Most of these cars run 13 seconds flat stock which isn't terrible, but we had cars running that in the 70's stock.. you'd think technology would have made them faster. Haven't had one truly outrun me yet. Even a couple of turbo LS cars didn't outrun me. My car is fuel injected and drives just like a modern car. I will say the 6th generation Camaro is one bad car - they run in the 11's NA from the factory, which is way better than the 5th generation camaro. The new Hellcat is one bad car, but you have to sit back and realize it's not NA. Same goes for the zr1 corvette and the new z06. I respect them and I respect the guys that wrench on them, but I won't say theyre faster - especially for the money. I have no where near the amount of money in my car as a new corvette - let alone ones that are modded, and I still can hang with or outrun most of them. I'll stick to my Poncho.

The 13 second cars of the 70s were awesome cars no doubt and they are far more attractive than anything built now but if we are being fair, gasoline and government regulations are one of the big reasons performance regressed and bottomed out for 20 years. They have now figured it out are just now getting it perfected. Now this is no dig at your car but after you get done beating them in the 1/4, go try to keep up around the corners and twisty's. Road race, autoX and canyons. The newest ones do it all and that's the big difference. Most cars from the 60s/70s transferred weight ok in a straight line with a few mods but they would drag their door handles on the ground making a turn at a 4 way stop. That's why I love the pro-touring sector of hotrodding. They do it all. It improves every aspect of a car when you make the big suspension upgrades. If I had an original numbers matching 69 RAIV 4 speed judge, I would probably call up SC&C and stick a level II package and an LGT700 tranny, 18s and some C6 brakes in it just so it was fun to drive. Its all bolt in stuff and can be easily converted back if necessary

[Formulajones]

Goodluck on that LGT700. I was just told yesterday a 16 week wait and only 3 retailers that deal with it in the country that I know of. Doesn't look promising.

[455TA]

Originally Posted by Nicks67GTO

The 13 second cars of the 70s were awesome cars no doubt and they are far more attractive than anything built now but if we are being fair, gasoline and government regulations are one of the big reasons performance regressed and bottomed out for 20 years. They have now figured it out are just now getting it perfected. Now this is no dig at your car but after you get done beating them in the 1/4, go try to keep up around the corners and twisty's. Road race, autoX and canyons. The newest ones do it all and that's the big difference. Most cars from the 60s/70s transferred weight ok in a straight line with a few mods but they would drag their door handles on the ground making a turn at a 4 way stop. That's why I love the pro-touring sector of hotrodding. They do it all. It improves every aspect of a car when you make the big suspension upgrades. If I had an original numbers matching 69 RAIV 4 speed judge, I would probably call up SC&C and stick a level II package and an LGT700 tranny, 18s and some C6 brakes in it just so it was fun to drive. Its all bolt in stuff and can be easily converted back if necessary

Oh I understand where you are coming from completely. I guess its up to you to decide what you want to do or what you like: whether thats corner carving, or straight line speed. My car handled pretty well with the 275/40/17 Yearone Snowflakes and beefy swaybars, but I took the sway bars off for track use and I take the snowflakes off when I get to the track to swap on some skinnies. I feel that if I were to spend the money on a good set of double adjustable coilovers for the front, hook the sway bar back up, and get a good set of double adjustable shocks for the rear, my car could hold it's own in the corners with the wide tires I have for street use. Definietly not Corvette fast around the turns, but I bet it could do better than a Charger or Challenger just due to the weight difference.

[mgarblik]

It's rare that I find myself on this side of a discussion, but stock in showroom form, the new muscle cars will destroy even the very best of the old muscle cars in a drag race or top speed. I have in my basement virtually every issue of Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Cars Magazine, Hot Rod, Car Craft and others from the late 1950's to around 1982. Looking through all of them from time to time, it was very rare for a stock muscle car from the era we love to break into the 13's. Some did, but not many. Most of the GTO's through the era ran 14.2-15.0 ET's depending on equipment. A really good Ram Air IV, 13.7-13.8. SD-455's 13.60 and that was damn fast for 1973. The really fun road tests to look at are the hemi cars. They simply run all over the place. As slow as 15.3-15.5 ET's because they were so hard to tune, to 13.5-13.8 for really good ones. Same with Big Block Chevy's. I have literally hundreds of these tests and only a Yenko or Super Duty 421, or ThunderBolt or cars like that were in the 12's or quicker. And the average person couldn't just walk into a new car dealer and buy one, you had to have connections. Today, there are dozens of new cars that will run in the high 13's and are just ordinary passenger cars or SUV's. 12 second new cars are fewer, but there are plenty of them available for anyone with a checkbook and come in all brands, shapes and sizes.
I dearly love my old muscle cars and the hobby and love to see an old school muscle car take out a new one. But I can't deny the fact that a stock V-6 Honda Accord will probably outrun a 64-65 GTO 389 4bbl. automatic. I don't like it, but I can at least understand it. Technology marches forward.

[455TA]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

It's rare that I find myself on this side of a discussion, but stock in showroom form, the new muscle cars will destroy even the very best of the old muscle cars in a drag race or top speed. I have in my basement virtually every issue of Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Cars Magazine, Hot Rod, Car Craft and others from the late 1950's to around 1982. Looking through all of them from time to time, it was very rare for a stock muscle car from the era we love to break into the 13's. Some did, but not many. Most of the GTO's through the era ran 14.2-15.0 ET's depending on equipment. A really good Ram Air IV, 13.7-13.8. SD-455's 13.60 and that was damn fast for 1973. The really fun road tests to look at are the hemi cars. They simply run all over the place. As slow as 15.3-15.5 ET's because they were so hard to tune, to 13.5-13.8 for really good ones. Same with Big Block Chevy's. I have literally hundreds of these tests and only a Yenko or Super Duty 421, or ThunderBolt or cars like that were in the 12's or quicker. And the average person couldn't just walk into a new car dealer and buy one, you had to have connections. Today, there are dozens of new cars that will run in the high 13's and are just ordinary passenger cars or SUV's. 12 second new cars are fewer, but there are plenty of them available for anyone with a checkbook and come in all brands, shapes and sizes.
I dearly love my old muscle cars and the hobby and love to see an old school muscle car take out a new one. But I can't deny the fact that a stock V-6 Honda Accord will probably outrun a 64-65 GTO 389 4bbl. automatic. I don't like it, but I can at least understand it. Technology marches forward.

Technology is always going to win eventually, so we have to adapt and use technology to our advantage, Like I have. I went to Fuel Injection and Aluminum heads, etc. Improvise, adapt, and overcome. Newer cars come with all that from the factory, so whats to say we can't use it too. And spend less than they do buying the new car and adding mods to it. They walk into a dealer, spend 50K on the new car, run a 12.8 or so, get mad thats its not faster, and they start modding them, so now you have a 60-70K car with a payment to boot. I have around 6k in my engine, 1k in transmission, another 800 bucks in the rear end, and various other stuff to go along with it all, I'm nowhere near what they spend and I stomp them at the track majority of the time.

[TedRamAirII]

Originally Posted by 455TA

I've had plenty of new "muscle cars" and new vettes play with my 80 TA at the track. Beaten new 5.0 Mustangs, new Hemi Chargers and Challengers, 2004 body style mustang gt's on Spray. All of these cars had plenty of Bolt ons and such. Most of these cars run 13 seconds flat stock which isn't terrible, but we had cars running that in the 70's stock.. you'd think technology would have made them faster. Haven't had one truly outrun me yet. Even a couple of turbo LS cars didn't outrun me. My car is fuel injected and drives just like a modern car. I will say the 6th generation Camaro is one bad car - they run in the 11's NA from the factory, which is way better than the 5th generation camaro. The new Hellcat is one bad car, but you have to sit back and realize it's not NA. Same goes for the zr1 corvette and the new z06. I respect them and I respect the guys that wrench on them, but I won't say theyre faster - especially for the money. I have no where near the amount of money in my car as a new corvette - let alone ones that are modded, and I still can hang with or outrun most of them. I'll stick to my Poncho.

Anyone that has never been "outrun" hasn't race against anyone "fast" . Don't know how you can say a ZR1 isn't faster. Stock trim is 11.5 @130 in the 1/4 and 200 MPH top speed, after the 1/4 is over he can keep going, pulling away from you. Kinda reminds me of the guy that was new in town, claimed he couldn't be beat. One of out group had a 66 Nova that put 4 lengths on him. The Nova ran 12's on street tires. The TESLA is plenty fast, there is a YouTube video it outrunning Hellcats. Amateurs of course, not professional drivers.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by 455TA

Technology is always going to win eventually, so we have to adapt and use technology to our advantage, Like I have. I went to Fuel Injection and Aluminum heads, etc. Improvise, adapt, and overcome. Newer cars come with all that from the factory, so whats to say we can't use it too. And spend less than they do buying the new car and adding mods to it. They walk into a dealer, spend 50K on the new car, run a 12.8 or so, get mad thats its not faster, and they start modding them, so now you have a 60-70K car with a payment to boot. I have around 6k in my engine, 1k in transmission, another 800 bucks in the rear end, and various other stuff to go along with it all, I'm nowhere near what they spend and I stomp them at the track majority of the time.

No argument with what you have done and are doing! Considering FI and other modern solutions for my 62 Catalina. My post was only comparing bone stock to bone stock. Just like you said, once you own it, you can do whatever you want to make it better/faster. No doubt it's more expensive and difficult to modify a new muscle car once you get past a basic re-flash and simple bolt-ons. Keep up what you are doing, turning some heads and spreading Pontiac Power!

[455TA]

Originally Posted by TedRamAirII

Anyone that has never been "outrun" hasn't race against anyone "fast" . Don't know how you can say a ZR1 isn't faster. Stock trim is 11.5 @130 in the 1/4 and 200 MPH top speed, after the 1/4 is over he can keep going, pulling away from you. Kinda reminds me of the guy that was new in town, claimed he couldn't be beat. One of out group had a 66 Nova that put 4 lengths on him. The Nova ran 12's on street tires. The TESLA is plenty fast, there is a YouTube video it outrunning Hellcats. Amateurs of course, not professional drivers.

I never said I could outrun a zr1 or z06, or hellcat. I said they are supercharged from the factory. regular vettes, and other newer cars I outrun all the time. My car runs mid 11's with a junk 12 inch converter and 3.42 gears. A bigger stall and better intake manifold will put me in the low 11's. I have raced some fast guys. Of course there are faster out there, hell there is always someone faster no matter who you are. But to say that newer cars are just Sooo much better is not true if you know what youre doing at all.