[Keith Seymore]

How we got our '65 GTO:

I have been building up to how we got the '65 GTO that we still have. I will lay this out as it was told to me (and as I remember it) and we can follow up with any questions or discussions relative to controversial points after the fact.

Now: back to the Fall of 1964 and Dad, once again, finds himself without a car and without compensation. Dick Jesse, as was his custom, had some tricks up his sleeve and was able to convince Dad that all was well. It would, once again, require a trip over to the Engineering Building.

They met up at the appointed time and made the short trip from Royal Oak to Pontiac; Clearance through security had been prearranged and they drove through the gate and around back. Staged behind the building, as if on display, were 5 white 1965 GTOs - stripped down jobs with no radios, undersized radiators, heater delete(?), red or blue vinyl interiors, tripower cars with manual transmissions, manual steering and manual brakes, steel wheels and dog dish hubcaps. They may have even had some improper trim, like Lemans trim or front grilles/headers. These cars were obviously built with one thing in mind, and that was to traverse a quarter mile as quickly as possible.

Now, here's the rub: somehow Dad got it in his mind that these cars were Engineering vehicles, built with thin gage die tryout material to take advantage of the weight savings. Someone had decided that, rather than scrapping this test material, it would be a good idea to build a complete car out of it.* He always maintained that Dick told him that outright; whether it was true, indicating that Dick had was more connected with the Factory than was previously thought, or whether it was a salesman's fabrication designed to sweeten the potential deal, we will probably never know.

Dick asked him: "So...which one would you like?".

Dad replied: "None of 'em...they look like taxi cabs!"

Dick: "So... what do you want?"

Dad: "I want a black one..."

Why Dad was so emboldened to turn down one of these special cars and ask for something else I'll never know. Dick wasn't sure there was enough material left to build one more car so off to the office area they went. A few phone calls were made and it was determined that there was enough material to build one more car. An order was placed** and Dad needed only to sit back and wait for the car to arrive.




* Dad was also informed where each of the vehicles went:

One Dick kept for himself, altered the wheelbase and turned the car into the "Mr Unswitchable" funny car. He actually got in trouble for cutting this Factory car up and had to rely on his cunning and "good looks" to keep his job.


One was given to Packer Pontiac and driven by Howard Maseles. I have talked to Howard about this car.


One went to Knafel and was driven by Arlen Vanke:


One was shipped to California, where Cecil Yother terrorized the West Coast

One (probably the one Dad refused) was shipped back east somewhere, thought to be repainted and raced by Myrtle Motors (?).



** I did not know this until we did the HPP article with Jeff Koch but Dad did not specify the options on this (his) car. Apparently the order was created by a clerk in the front office; seeing that this was a Royal/Jesse vehicle he or she may have clicked the correct performance options but then also added some "showcar" options too: back up lights, door edge guards, AM w reverb (although the reverb was nonfunctional; it was packed with lead for ballast) and throw in floor mats. The car was also oddly optioned in that it did not include the tach or rally cluster. Besides the unusual reverb, the car was also delivered with the battery already installed in the trunk and the hood cut for use with a primitive, prototype ram air pan.

[Keith Seymore]

Picking up the '65

After a few days the call came. The build of the car had been expedited, to avoid being trapped on property due to an anticipated UAW strike, and was ready to be picked up.

There was only one complication. My mom was due any day with my little sister, Jennifer* and in fact Jenny was born on Thursday, September 10th of 1964. We went to the hospital on Thursday, but on Friday, instead of going back, we picked the car up and drove it home. Actual delivery date for the car: Friday, September 11th: a full 10 calendar days before the "official introduction" and documented delivery date of September 21st.**

No money was exchanged (he was still taking advantage of his $3100 purchase of the Catalina) nor was there any paperwork (ie, window sticker, build documentation) provided. The only documentation was a penciled note on the Owners Manual envelope: "No COD".



This time, though, he did get something very important, and something that would change the course of his luck: a "clear" title...



Chronologically, the aforementioned "Gasket Story" would go here: (post #61 in this thread or http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=557167)



* Actually, my sister's name was supposed to be Elizabeth. Dad had already made the phone calls to relatives informing them that my sister had been born and was named Elizabeth. However, either due to the drugs or out of spite for my Dad not being there (or both), my mom stated her name was Jennifer when filling out the birth certificate and she has been Jennifer ever since.

** John V has pointed out to me that these dates to not line up with his published information on when the UAW strike (mentioned in the link) actually began. One explanation might be that there were actually "pockets" of local strike activity before the National Strike took hold (Pontiac being one area affected); another explanation could be that we went down to "look" at the car on Friday and actually drove it home early the next week. In either case, we were fooling around doing car stuff rather than going to see my mom and sister in the hospital. Mom is still (in a good natured way) "mad" about that....

[Keith Seymore]

Race Career for the '65

I had mentioned we had very good success with both our '63 Cat and our '64 GTO, both being undefeated in NHRA class competition. You probably expect me to say the same thing about the '65, and I wish I could, but alas I cannot. Although we did very well*, by now there were some local players on the scene that had really stepped up their program and were causing us some problems: Art Noey, from Shaker Engineering, for one. We traded the record back and forth but Art was a significant thorn in our side.

The car was actually lighter than it needed to be for B/Stock. One technique for making the weight break was to roll through tech with the tow bar (and safety chains) still in place, toolbox and slicks in the trunk, fuel tank full of fuel and me standing on the scales! After passing tech, all those items would come flying off/out of the car in time for competition...**

* Dad used to "toy" with the locals a little bit. As his reputation grew, he could tell they were waiting for him to choose a class before they would enter (choosing a different class). He used to wait until the last minute, then write the class designation on the window and then watch his competition scramble to sign up for something else. Similar games were played through the week, as his buddies would, as discreetly as possible, ask where he thought he might run that weekend (so that they could better their chances by running at a different track).

The other thing he would do is never "tip his hand" or show what the car was fully capable of until it was absolutely necessary. During time runs he would make one pass, launching hard and coasting through the top end (to make sure the car was performing on the bottom half of the track). The next pass he would launch easy and then run hard on the top end. He would never win by any more than he needed to, and would only run hard when pressed to do so. Then, when he did make a good, full, hard pass he would often see his competition taking off the windshield wipers, pulling their floor mats out, etc in an effort to gain back some bit of performance!

** We did get caught "light" on one occasion. Dad made a pass and, before he retrieved the time slip, the tech official directed him across the scale.

"I don't want to go across the scale" dad said.

The tech official unrelentingly directed him back. "I really don't want to go across the scale" dad said.

"You have to - you just set a B/Stock record" the tech replied.

"You can keep your record, I'm not going across that scale!"

Well, he did, and it earned him a brief "vacation" from racing at that particular track.

------------------

We also had the opportunity to do some "tire testing" with this car. Back sometime between '65 and '67 we did some work for M&H and tried out a new style of slick called a "wrinklewall"...

We made about 6 passes and after we were done they let us keep the tires

So that next weekend we went to Ubly Dragway and ran those tires. Some of the locals saw us running (and the times we were running) and so they started airing down their traditional tires. They were wallowing all over the place and really it was kind of unsafe. It got so bad the track announcer finally got on the PA system and told everyone to put the air back in their tires or he would throw us all out...

[Keith Seymore]

The Beginning of the End (and the End)

For 1966, Dad was given an OHC 6 cylinder Sprint to race. With some modifications he was able to get this car to run in the 12's. After spending all season developing the car and getting it to run properly, it was returned to Royal and sold as a factory demonstrator.

He didn't prefer the new '66 GTOs to his existing '65 and elected to keep his car (it probably didn't hurt that he kept the car at home now, and did not bring it down when looking at the '66s. Having a clear title in his possession was helpful, too).

For the 1967 season he elected to run our car, but in the B/Modified Production class. This class was a little less restrictive than the stock classes, and allowed him to run the newer tripower, better heads and a larger slick. It was in this configuration that the car ran it's best ever ET of 12.23 at 118 mph.*



For 1968, we had a new GTO with a few unique features: it was a 400 2 bbl (Ram Air), auto trans column shift, Rally ones with redlines. The most interesting feature, though, was the car was silver with black up around the back window. It was a test car for an appearance package, and they were trying to determine if the scheme should be done with stickers (on the line or at the dealer) or with paint.



By now the "bloom was off the rose" with Royal. Either it was the drain of being told where to race, when to race, how to race (and, in some cases, who would win) or it was the dynamics of trying to work with a team, but Dad was pretty much done. He left in late 1968/early 1969, running our car independently until it was unceremoniously parked in 1974.



Royal would be sold a few years later and the "Glory Days", for us, were done. Just like the Pony Express, which captures the imagination of Americans even though it existed for 10 short years, Royal Pontiac would stir the minds of young men both then and for years to come.



* It was also in this configuration that the car was parked and sat untouched until the mid 1990s. Other than replacing the 1.65 rocker arms with 1.50 arms, and reshimming the valve spring shims, the car is currently, today, sporting these same modifications and is fully functional.

[mike nixon]

so keith, you gonna bring this rolling piece of history to norwalk one of these years?

mike

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by mike nixon

so keith, you gonna bring this rolling piece of history to norwalk one of these years?

mike

Does that make it a "POH" car?



For the last 10 years or so I've been running for series championship points with the traveling associations, so that has always taken priority.

Now that my association is defunct (the former NSCA) I may have more time in my schedule for fun Pontiac stuff. I'd say within the next year or so I may be able to get back down there.

We did have the car at Norwalk a few years back and that was where Pete McCarthy and Jim Mattison first saw it, I believe...

I bring it out often for local shows (especially those that I am hosting) and also was asked to bring it to the "Eyes on Design" concours this year on Father's Day (held at the Edsel Ford Estate), as one of the significant vehicles in GMs 100 year celebration.

K

[Keith Seymore]

I just made this observation over on another thread, but thought it might be appropriate here too:

The body drop operation is a very dramatic part of any plant. Tours always get hung up at this spot, because people from the outside love to see that car body coming down out of the sky: a really good hoist operator could let the body cradle essentially "free fall", stop it instantly just inches above the frame, and then gently set it down. At that point the other assemblers would nonchalantly install the body mount cups and bolts, as if they did it hundreds of times every day (which, of course, they did ).

This was not where you put your "new guy", but only the most experienced assemblers (obviously)...

The picture below is from the Fremont plant.

K

[Mr_GTO]

Is that a Olds, then buick and then a Pontiac chasis?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Mr_GTO

Is that a Olds, then buick and then a Pontiac chasis?

Yep.

When I worked at the truck plant we had Chevy's and GMCs going down the same line (with separate VIN sequences. Chevy's started at 100001 and GMCs started at 500001). That includes Blazer and Suburban, and then pickups (2wd, 4wd, short box, long box, fleetside and stepside).

Even today at the Arlington plant we build Chevy, GMC and Cadillac all down the same line, for example.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by RicksGTO

I'm wondering if there was a maximum height limit on the pit workers there... If not I can see where there would be a permanent dent in that guys head from the rear diffs.

This came up over on the other thread, and it made me think of a story...

I used to have a pit repairman by the name of Garfield Hardy. He was a small black man that had to have a step stool to reach the bottom of the truck.

When deer season rolls around in Michigan it very nearly shuts the plant down. In order to combat that, what we would do is solicit volunteers (from those of us who were left) to work double shifts to keep the plant running. Garfield was one of those guys who would work every extra minute of overtime that he could get.

After about a week of 16 or 20 hour days they would begin to take their toll. After one particularly long day (or so it seemed) I looked down in the pit to see Garfield, sitting on his stool, nodding off - barely able to shake himself awake.

Taking pity on the man, I shouted, mostly to wake him up without embarrassment: "Garfield, what does your wife think about you working all this overtime?".

He shot back, without opening his eyes: "She jus says 'see ya lata, honey - Ahm goin' shoppin'!".



It's become sort of a standard response around my house, among my daughters...

[Keith Seymore]

Freemont must have been a pretty good quality plant; if that was Flint there would be repair vehicles lined up all along that aisleway...

[johnta1]

At the F-body plants, how did the 'bodies' get to the engine?
Were the engines on the subframe then mated to the body?

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by johnta1

At the F-body plants, how did the 'bodies' get to the engine?
Were the engines on the subframe then mated to the body?

Yes. Engines were installed into the subframe and later "raised" into postion with the body (rather than a "body drop" as was done with a full frame vehicle).

It is described here: http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

This is a little different product but should give you an idea:



K

[Keith Seymore]

A friend just sent me this link. Although it is for a competitor's product, in a different country, there are a lot of similarities between it and the assembly process of the early 1960s (it also is "public domain", so I don't have to worry about posting anything confidential).

Some of the similarities I noticed are:

a) Body shop welding - the manual welding operations would be very similar to how it was done back then (or even when I started in 1979).

b) Notice the bins of material sitting line side, and the little "jitney" trucks pulling material down the aisle

c) Notice the paper manifest copy hanging on the instrument panel. Those would be pulled off and discarded (perhaps 40 years from now someone will be excited to find one of these in their vehicle!).

d) The chassis carrier, which fixtures the front and rear suspensions in position. This is the same way the Tempests (or other unibody construction vehicles) were built.

e) Engine set - very similar to back then

f) Notice the inspection and repair persons (or supervisor) at their "stand up desks" lineside

g) Body drop (although our crane operators would drop the bodies in more of a "free fall")

h) Shipping lot - notice all those vehicles, lined up and ready to be shipped. The volume of vehicles stored was what I was trying to convey in one of my early posts. Also note that some of the vehicles have the windshield wipers pulled up off the windshield: I would be willing to bet that is a "signal" for those specific vehicles, ie, they are to be shipped by rail, or need to be moved to a repair area or something. I may have mentioned this before but we would flag certain vehicles in this way with the repair ticket. A ticket rolled up and stuck in the door handle would mean one thing, a ticket folded and smashed in the vent window would signal something else. FWIW -

K

http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189

[GT182]

THis is semi funy in a way Keith. You started to work for GNM in 79. I started working for Anchor Mtr Frt Champlain, NY in Feb 78. Was there until they closed the terminal in Nov. of 93.

Funny how you mention plant tours. We tried over and over to get a tour of the ST. Therese GM plant. They always put us off as if they didn't want those that hauled their product to see how it was made. Sad in a way that they thought like that. Made us feel like we weren't wanted inside. Most of us were proud of the cars we hauled, and proud we could deliver them damage free. I'd ask for a tour here in Wilmington, DE but they'd just laugh seeing I've been away from carhaul so long.

[CDN2PLS2]

I tried like hell to go through St Therese just before they closed,because I had a contact inside,showed up,watched the safety video,then was told no! There were alot of problems with the Union in the end.Nobody was too happy about the closing.Every car was getting a road test around a loop in the neigborhood.I did get some pics before the leveling of the Plant though.

[GT182]

CDN2PLS2, any way I can get copies of them leveling the plant in St. Therese? That was our pickup point out of Champalin, NY. We had to drive up there 58 miles one way, 2 to 3 times a week, depending on the length of the trips we had. And it was damn cold too. I remember being up there when it was 40 below zero back in 84. Brrrrrrrrrr

PM me if you want and I'll give you my address or email address.

I just looked on Google Earth and Anchor's Wellseley Island terminal is still there..... empty but there. Champlain's Anchor terminal too but it's not quite the same.

[CDN2PLS2]

I don't have any shots of the Demo,I was there when they were finishing the last of production.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

A friend just sent me this link. Although it is for a competitor's product, in a different country, there are a lot of similarities between it and the assembly process of the early 1960s...

Heh, heh...

Was just noticing the irony of this post: Ford made the video to demonstrate how advanced their production process is; I was using that same video to show how similar the process is to the early 60's...

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by citydesk175

BY The Way

After reading the definition of the Lobby....... I wish to announce that today is another milestone birthday for me. I have stopped being 60!!!

Sigh.. I am accomplishing this by turning 61 but it is a small price to pay considering the alternative methods

Regards
CityDesk175

Speaking of auspicious occasions, it was 29 years ago today that I walked through the doors at Chevrolet Flint Assembly and started my illustrious career with General Motors...