[Formulajones]

I'll add this. We go to big meets and shows frequently. And travel long distances to many of them.
I used to always see 100's of cars throughout the year with those awful Eddy carbs on them.
Over the last few years I've seen the switch. Now every other car you see has some sort of EFI throttle body on it. They are literally everywhere. Different brands but no joke, every other car in line has one now.
Even at a big meet like good guys where we'll have 3000 cars coming and going all weekend, literally half of them you look at are throttle body efi. The rest are a mixed bag of multi port EFI or full blown modern engine swaps born with EFI. The amount with classic engines and carbs has dwindled to a very small percentage.
Now that's not a trend I'm thrilled about but gives you an idea the amount that's out there enjoying their rides.

[78MayanW87]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

The software used in the sniper lineup is a Holley HP light system. It's still plenty powerful though. I really don't think you're going to be missing anything personally.

You asked about complaints from Cliff regarding the sniper line. I think some of the increase in complaints may be sheer volume related, but I don't necessarily subscribe to that as being the only reasons.

I have run several FiTech systems, mine being almost 10 years old at this point. So, I have my biases. Without the FiTech system, the TBI Sniper never gets made. Additionally, FiTech owns the patent for integrated ECU TBI systems, so the primary sniper line-up at minimum is likely paying a royalty fee back to FiTech. That margin hit has to be made up somewhere. I think the basic Sniper line as a result was whipped together as quickly as possible so that the FiTech systems didn't completely decimate Holley's EFI business which had entry level stuff at close to 3x the price of the FiTech.

I believe their product and support has gotten better, but my personal opinion is that Sniper was rushed to market and it's quality as a result of that is/was effected. That is of course my own speculation though. Take it with a grain of salt.

All that said, these things are fairly simple and they all use OEM sensors etc. The biggest issues I see of any of these units, regardless of brand is that it's typically a poor install, or a car that has other issues going on that causes poor performance from these entry level EFI systems.

There are a couple things I tell everyone that is looking that you must do to get the best performance possible.

1. Don't skimp on the fuel system. Stay away from frame mount pumps and under hood reservoir systems. They are all junk. Get a new tank with an in-tank pump and run a proper feed and return line with the system.
2. The car must have it's electrical sorted. The EFI system relies heavily on constant and steady power while also needing to be insulated from electrical interference. If you have a rats nest of wiring in the car, items that don't or barely work, fix that before you attempt to install EFI of any kind.
3. Any vacuum or exhaust leaks need to be cured if present. Vacuum or Exhaust leaks fool the onboard sensors of the units into thinking things are happening that aren't. As a result you either get lean or rich run characteristics that you'll never be able to tune out.

Once you've verified all of the items above, the last thing to make sure you get correct is the install itself. This needs to be clean and methodical without any shortcuts. The biggest one I see is people thinking that clamp on oxygen sensor is good enough for anything other than the trip across town to the exhaust shop to have it welded up. If you cut corners on the install, you'll have a poor experience.

Regardless of the brand you choose, the above accounts for a solid 90% of all problems. Yes some make it out of the factory with issues, but it's not as many as you'd think.

For me personally, I still think the Sniper Quadrajet is what I'd put on your car the way you want to run it. Unless you decide to use a square bore manifold in which case I'd probably recommend the FiTech Go EFI 4.

This is great stuff, Jason and much appreciated! Regarding existing issues that you mention that must be sorted out first, I think that I am pretty good shape there as this is a quasi frame-on resto. I have already replaced the fuel tank with a Tanks and while the wiring was not a complete disaster, it was suspicious enough that I have replaced the wiring harnesses with Lectric Limited looms. Once I put the engine back in, I will be going back with new vacuum hoses. I think I'll be in good shape as far as mitigating any existing issues that may interfere with the EFI operating properly. Thanks again for all the help here and detailed explanation of your recommendations. Very much appreciated! Lee

[HWYSTR455]

No need for a dual sync with a Sniper, the hyperspark is all you need. The dual sync dizzies are kind of problematic, avoid them unless absolutely necessary.


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[GOAT8U2]

As someone with all this, be patient and prepared for a bill over $10k when you're done if you have it installed and tuned.

Holley Hp, 1000cfm, 120lb Inj (83lb are plenty even for flexfuel) T2 with 1" spacer, Ricks Gas Tank alone is $2200 for EFI pump, I made the first bolt on Pontiac 12-1 crank trigger kit with Hall Effect (coming soon) for us, no dual sync needed, tuner is etc etc.

Yes in the end its better but not cheaper and it's only easier after the above is installed and tuned. LOL

I've heard nothing but reliability issues with the Sniper, wouldn't touch it personally, HP is minimum unless you want trans control.

[HWYSTR455]

Someone needs to come out with a shallow crank pulley for crank trigger wheel setups. Having to shim all the pulleys is a game killer for many if not most.


.

[GOAT8U2]

I'm doing all the spacers first and literally getting this all done as we speak, if the pricing is better to just make the pulley I'll do that and it's faster to bolt on really. So far the 4.5" water pump puts that pulley in line so its just the alt and PS for most of us.

[HWYSTR455]

Lot's of people have serpentine setups is why spacers complicate matters, that's my reason, and reasoning.


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[Lee]

Originally Posted by 78MayanW87

Thanks Lee. I'm not married to the Holley line, my thoughts were that being the most popular (quantity-wise), the support, not only from Holley, but other users would be greater but I am certainly open to suggestions on another brand. My goal with this build would be around 400 hp, so it looks like the FAST EZ-EFI 1.0 would be the route I would go if I went with FAST. Am I reading you correctly that that would be your recommendation. Thanks--Lee (also Lee here...)

NO!!! I would never use the 1.0 system on anything.

I would not do ANY of the aftermarket systems, if not also doing the ignition at the same time - these systems work MUCH more efficiently and effectively when they also control ignition.

That said, I am under the impression that FAST's "street" systems (EZ's mainly) may be going away, or possibly absorbed by Edelbrock. Edelbrock will have the street and street/strip systems, and FAST will be for the more serious racers.

If I were to buy a streetable system right now, it would either be Holley Terminator (with the distributor) or Edelbrock ProFlow4.

[Skip Fix]

Not sure what EZ version I have I just took off a new project but I'll make you a deal on ECU, TB and wiring harness! It was a running system.

Swapping it to a Holley Stealth Terminator that looks like a Holley.

[HWYSTR455]

Try to remember that the 'Terminator' / 'Terminator Stealth' and 'Terminator X' / 'Terminator X Stealth' systems are different.

The 'Terminator Stealth' systems use the HP ECU, and the 'Terminator X Stealth' use the new Terminator X ECU.

Holley has dumped a lot of R&D into the Terminator X, and the ECU & software show it.

The HP and Dominator ECUs are being phased out, along with their' associated 'Stealth' offerings. They will still support the older offerings, just like they still support their' legacy Avenger and Atomic systems.

Only reason to get the Terminator X Stealth would be if you want it to look like a Holley, though there are other reasons too, like if in the future you want to go to port injection, for one. They cost more than the Sniper for those reasons.

Otherwise, the Sniper 2, which is the latest revision, should serve well. And it's not too difficult to tune one. And install is for the most part about on the same level as swapping a carb. The fuel system is a little more of an effort, but still not difficult.

The Sniper 2 is pretty hashed out, Holley learned a lot from the original Terminator and Sniper offerings.

Holley isn't going anywhere anytime soon, so support shouldn't be a problem.

Edelbrock's purchase for FAST is still pretty recent, so suspect restructuring etc will impact production and R&D. It's probably limited to new old stock.

The Sniper 2 QJ is about $1500, Tanks Inc tank/pump/sender is about $550, and if you want to add spark, the HyperSpark 'system' is about $750. Add @ $200 or so for plumbing and you're right around $3k.

The square bore Sniper 2 is $1150, and you can run an adapter if you want to go that route and save about $400.


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[JLMounce]

You do also need an external regulator with the Sniper QJ. Unlike it's square bore cousin, it doesn't have an internal regulator.

[HWYSTR455]

That I didn't know, thanks JL.

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[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

That I didn't know, thanks JL.

.

It's one of the things that makes the QJ Sniper just a bit more expensive.

I priced out a full system Sniper QJ for my uncle earlier this year.

It was a complete system from the Sniper unit, Tanks Inc tank, full fuel system, including the regulator as well as the hyperspark dizzy, coil and CD box. All in on parts it was just shy of $3500.00

This is kind of where Holley starts to lose me. The products in some instances are purposely missing things that you want/need. These don't have build in coil drivers, so if you want the system to run spark, you have to have a CD box...That means buying from a brand Holley owns. Same thing with the missing regulator on some of the models. You're probably buying that from a Holley brand.

Personally, I hate that business approach.

[Formulajones]

I never recommend using the internal regulators anyway. I always prefer to source my own good quality regulator.

The internals have been on and off problematic anyway.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

I never recommend using the internal regulators anyway. I always prefer to source my own good quality regulator.

The internals have been on and off problematic anyway.

I think this is mostly because the parts supplied with all of these electronic throttle bodies are lowest bidder.

To give an example of this, the FiTech internal regulator uses a regulator from Volkswagen and Audi products, which don't typically have large failure rates.

The FiTech unit doesn't have a large failure rate in general, but it is a cheap copy of the OEM Bosche unit. You can choose to replace all of these sensors right away if you're worried about it and you then have modern OE level equipment in them.

Quality across the board on automotive items right now is very poor. Even from big names like Holley and Edelbrock. It's currently better for the bottom line to ship crap products and warranty replacement parts then it is to produce quality products to begin with.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

It's one of the things that makes the QJ Sniper just a bit more expensive.

I priced out a full system Sniper QJ for my uncle earlier this year.

It was a complete system from the Sniper unit, Tanks Inc tank, full fuel system, including the regulator as well as the hyperspark dizzy, coil and CD box. All in on parts it was just shy of $3500.00

This is kind of where Holley starts to lose me. The products in some instances are purposely missing things that you want/need. These don't have build in coil drivers, so if you want the system to run spark, you have to have a CD box...That means buying from a brand Holley owns. Same thing with the missing regulator on some of the models. You're probably buying that from a Holley brand.

Personally, I hate that business approach.

Well, I also add a fuel psi transducer, which I feel is critical.

It is a know fact that with the original Sniper releases the internal fuel regulator was sketchy, and most bypass and add one. But have yet to hear if the Sniper 2 addressed that issue. I think they did, have heard some say that when contacting support, they replace those units without hesitation.

I personally will just do a SOP type fuel system, regardless of the setup. That way you can go in any directions and not have to every really touch it again.



.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

...Quality across the board on automotive items right now is very poor. Even from big names like Holley and Edelbrock. It's currently better for the bottom line to ship crap products and warranty replacement parts then it is to produce quality products to begin with...

I think it's like any production system, the assembly occurs with initially sourced parts, and when issues with supply quality arise, it gets injected at the beginning of the process, and whatever is in stock or moving in the assembly line already, have to 'flush out' before the issue is fully resolved. If they have capital, they also remove existing questionable parts from stock before they reach the beginning of the assembly line.

It's common practice, happens with any mass production assembly line. They deal with the call-backs appropriately, and aren't really denying the issue(s). Smaller companies don't replace existing stock, and continue to inject the know defective parts into the assembly process. That's not cool, but it's 'business'.


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[Formulajones]

Even though this EFI section is relatively young we've probably said this 100 times already. Most of the EFI complaints I've read or come across personally are all self inflicted.

Most internal fuel pressure problems I've seen are caused by dirt, they get clogged. That's because of what I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. People trying to run these efi's with 60 year old fuel systems and to make matters worse they don't run a proper fuel filter.

Every EFI system I've done has a completely new fuel system. New EFI tank, nice pump in the tank. A nice stainless mesh cleanable fuel filter down to 10 micron, all new lines, and an external regulator etc..... never a single issue to date.

I'll add to the business rant side of things that unfortunately these companies advertise these systems as cheap as they can to draw you in as a consumer and it's anything but that. If you do it right it's about a $3000 leap with a simple throttle body EFI. Sadly people take the bate and toss these systems on as cheap as possible and then the problems arise.

I'm not sure the sniper 2 has addressed all issues as I still read a lot of the same thing. That leads me to believe it's an install or car issue more than a sniper issue. Especially since Ive never had issues with the sniper 1 to start with.

[HWYSTR455]

Couldn't agree more.

I am using the Holley 10m Dominator EFI regulator, it's rated at 260GPH. Tanks Inc tank, GPA-6 pump. I've been seeing a psi drop at 5k and up RPM, have been troubleshooting that.

Thought initially it might be an issue with the pump, or the pump being too close to the floor of tank. Noticed Tanks Inc now has a comment that the higher volume pumps are not compatible with the non-notched tanks, and it wasn't available when I ordered originally.

So got the notched tank, and stepped up to a GPA-8 pump. Got it all in there, and same thing.

So only thing left was the filter, right? Dropped the filter, opened it up, and it was a mesh element, didn't think twice about it, cleaned it, slapped it back in there, and same thing.

Figured I would replace the element, since all I could think of is that maybe I didn't clean the element properly, and some say that you can't clean the 10m filters.

Looking at replacement elements, I couldn't find a 10m element in steel mesh. ?? . So now I'm thinking it's a lower GPH element and I got the wrong filter or it came with the wrong element. It has the AN -12 ORB fittings, so it has to be the right housing.

Anyway, the new element, which is paper, will be here in like 2 hours, fingers crossed. But paper elements make me nervous.

I also have a 460GPH 10m filter for another build, so I opened that up, and sure enough, it's a paper element. And they only offer a paper element for it. Perplexing.

I may just go to another vendor for a filter, we'll see.



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[Formulajones]

I'd like to hear how the filter deal turns out.

What do you mean by notched tank? I just have the standard Tanks Inc EFI 20 gallon A-body tank in mine with a 450 LPH pump. It holds fuel pressure fine at WOT as long as I have more than a 1/2 tank. I have found the car launches hard enough that with a 1/2 tank or less it must be uncovering the pump even though it's baffled because my fuel pressure immediately goes from 60 to about 35 for a few seconds. So track runs are with a full tank only, which is actually how I've always prefered it anyway, I need the weight back there, lol.

Mine is supposed to be a 10 micron cleanable steel mesh fuel filter. I think it's from Russel. It has AN ends on it and the body unscrews. Very easy to install it pretty much anywhere in line. I'm guilty though, probably haven't cleaned it in 2-3 years LOL.