[Chief of the 60's]

I like how they always use the term "initial quality". What about 35,000 - 50,000 mile quality? Most GM's, Mazdas, and Mitsubishi's self destruct around that number while Range Rovers and Jaguar cannot even get that far.

[necdb3]

^^^ The last 4 replies duplicate my feelings based on real knowledge in the industry. Consumer reports is another joke IMO. Everyone is entitled to form their own opinion but posting data, as these surveys do, and misleading the general public is a disgrace. My brother in law used to swear by Consumer reports and bought cars, appliances, etc based off of them only to be hugely disappointed. I remember telling him not to pay any attention to them for years as he would drive some of the biggest pieces of crap cars.

To each his own I guess, some never learn.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by necdb3

I can't fault those who trust JD Powers, as you should be able to, but the numbers are manipulated by the manufacturers.

I challenge you to show how the numbers are manipulated by the manufacturers.

The information reported in the survey comes directly from actual vehicle owners - not the manufacturers.

The results aren't the opinions of JD Powers employees - the employees merely compile the data obtained from the vehicle owners.

[Chief of the 60's]

LOL!

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by TCSGTO

JD Powers thinks 911’s,Chevy Sonics,and Mini Money Pit Coopers are reliable? I guess just about any car is reliable when it’s new. I like this site for good unbiased info on used vehicles.

http://dashboard-light.com/reports/Acura.html

Edmonds.com owner reviews are good too.

I spent some time on this site. which I had not heard of until you posted it. I look at it as another piece of the puzzle and add it to my "tool box". Since I get at least 1 inquiry every day such as, "what used car should I buy?, or what do you recommend I get for my next car?", I feel I need more than just my personal opinion, anecdotal evidence, or that gut feeling when asked. I try to use a logical blend of personal experience over 45 years in the business, vehicles that have been good to me, my friends, and customers, and survey results and road tests like this site provides. Even then, it's still a crap shoot. One funny example was my barber. He is a bland character, using a car as a conveyance appliance, nothing else. He wants to spend the minimum on some gray colored car and drive it till the wheels fall off for 20+ years. Reliability is 100 on the list, period. I recommend he buy a gray 4-door Toyota Camry 4-cylinder Auto. Can you think of anything more bland and reliable than that? Didn't think so. So he buys it new and within 2 months it has left him stranded 3 times!!. Once on vacation requiring a flat bed tow hundreds of miles. To end the story, which had a happy ending by the way, after 6 months of continued misery, the dealer finally agreed to buy the car back. It had around 4K miles on it. They gave him another gray 4-door that looked like it's twin sister. 4 years later and 58,000 miles later, not a single issue with it. Just serviced it last week. So in the end, you just never know for sure if your going to be lucky.

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by The Champ

I challenge you to show how the numbers are manipulated by the manufacturers.

The information reported in the survey comes directly from actual vehicle owners - not the manufacturers.

The results aren't the opinions of JD Powers employees - the employees merely compile the data obtained from the vehicle owners.

Do you realize that the manufacturers pay JD Power for this information? Where there is money, there is manipulation. Those results mean a lot to manufacturer's, and they are willing to pay for good results. Manufacturers also drop some negative surveys from their customers. Some customers never get surveyed, ever wonder why that is? You have to open your eyes.

[bendutro]

Originally Posted by The Champ

I challenge you to show how the numbers are manipulated by the manufacturers.

The information reported in the survey comes directly from actual vehicle owners - not the manufacturers.

The results aren't the opinions of JD Powers employees - the employees merely compile the data obtained from the vehicle owners.

JD Power awards are steaming piles of crap. They create 1000s of award categories for the express purpose of selling the results to OEMs who can use it in their advertising. The profit motive in the sales side of the results outweighs any legitimate research data as they leave the actual statistical analysis out. It's a stupid sales tool of dubious value.

[geeteeohguy]

If you want reliability, go with a Toyota or a Honda. Toyota Corolla and Camry's are not exciting cars, but are very reliable. I still drive my 1983 Toyota 4x4 pickup to work every day. 36 years old and still going strong on the original drivetrain and engine. Just put a new battery in it last week. (number 5, I think!). Utterly reliable and it has never left me stranded. I'm a mechanic and have worked on and driven all makes, and Toyota and Lexus are by far the most reliable vehicles I've run across. YMMV............

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Back when the cars they came in had some value, we made allot of money on the 2.7L Chrysler engines. Every repair was huge money. A water pump, common failure item , was a terrible repair on those. Seems Chrysler engine that end with a 7 are bad luck with the single exception of the 5.7L Hemi. 2.7, 3.7. 4.7. All Junk from an owners standpoint. Nowdays, almost any repair on those engines exceeds the value of the vehicle they are installed in. Those early Intrepid tranaxles were terrible too. I can't even count the number of them driving around in 2nd gear only for months or even years until they finally blew the engines to pieces from overrevving, or the parts finally exited the trans case. It's like not a single person at Chrysler ever drove one of them before they went into production. Too bad because they were really nice cars on the rare occasion everything worked as designed.

Yep I had the 2nd gears blues. That was a pretty easy fix. Changed out one of the sensors that had some metal particles built up.

and yep that WP repair sucked. Its behind the timing belt. The first time I changed it out took 8 hours. Then the POS WP went bad again in a couple years. I figured I could get through it in half the time. Nope took another 8 hours. So yeah If I had to pay a shop i would have junked it.

[The Champ]

Originally Posted by necdb3

Do you realize that the manufacturers pay JD Power for this information? Where there is money, there is manipulation. Those results mean a lot to manufacturer's, and they are willing to pay for good results. Manufacturers also drop some negative surveys from their customers. Some customers never get surveyed, ever wonder why that is? You have to open your eyes.

Do you realize that the only reason that manufacturers pay for this information is that it is unbiased?

A smart manufacturer with bad ratings pays to learn exactly where they are letting consumers down. A manufacturer with good ratings pays to learn what they are doing right and what they could be doing better.

Name me one survey where 100% of the people get surveyed.

At J.D. Power, our independent and unbiased ratings, reviews and awards are based on detailed survey feedback from hundreds of thousands of verified car owners and their experiences throughout the first 3 months of car ownership through 3 years of car ownership.

Our surveys are comprised of hundreds of questions covering vehicle attributes such as quality, dependability, performance and the car owner's experiences at the car dealership.

Once the survey responses have been collected and categorized into specific price (premium vs. non-premium) and car size (compact, small, midsize and large) groups, ratings are calculated based on the range between the specific model attribute or service with the highest score in its segment and the one with the lowest score within the same segment.

The 3 month survey is the "Initial Quality Survey". This is not the survey that I posted results for. I posted the 3 year survey that shows how reliable/dependable the vehicles are over 3 years.

My eyes are wide open. Some people just refuse to accept the truth.

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Do you realize that the only reason that manufacturers pay for this information is that it is unbiased?

A smart manufacturer with bad ratings pays to learn exactly where they are letting consumers down. A manufacturer with good ratings pays to learn what they are doing right and what they could be doing better.

Name me one survey where 100% of the people get surveyed.



The 3 month survey is the "Initial Quality Survey". This is not the survey that I posted results for. I posted the 3 year survey that shows how reliable/dependable the vehicles are over 3 years.

My eyes are wide open. Some people just refuse to accept the truth.

You have the right to believe what you want to believe, I'm fine with that, it's just not reality. I worked for manufacturers for half my career and saw it. Customers could be labeled to not receive surveys, nuff said. Data gets manipulated nuff said, you don't have to believe it.

[The Champ]

Just how do you "label" customers to not receive surveys? How do you manipulate data that is received from the survery?

Lots of claims - no proof.

[David Jones]

Not much needs to be manipulated in a survey covering 3 year old cars.
Useless info.
There's not a manufacturer out there that can't turn out a fairly decent car for a 3 year run. It's what happens after that where some makers shine.

[SRR]

Originally Posted by David Jones

Not much needs to be manipulated in a survey covering 3 year old cars.
Useless info.
There's not a manufacturer out there that can't turn out a fairly decent car for a 3 year run. It's what happens after that where some makers shine.

The cars reliability should outlive the payments! My wife has a 2014 Honda Accord Sport and in 100,000 miles I've had to put on two water pumps, one belt tensioner and two batteries, three sets of tires. The check engine came on twice saying the ABS module was bad ($1100) and once for the throttle body (fly by wire). I reset them and they haven't come back. It has a CVT transmission and if wasn't the one taking care of the car I think it would be toast by now, I've changed the fluid 3 time so far and it comes out discolored every time. I think the owners manual says every 30,000 miles.

[ta6point6]

Every manufacture has/built bad cars so factor that in. Plus buying a used car the unknown factor is how the previous owner treated vehicle before you got it. Hopefully most of the problems with vehicle have been replaced or taken care of under warranty work. So when you get the vehicle hopefully it is in good shape and the bugs have been worked out. A vehicle making 100,000 miles on any newer car should be no problem. That being said the most important thing about buying a used car is where you buy it and what kind of warranty they are willing to give you. I bought my Chevy at a Ford dealership because they gave a 2 year drive train warranty. I can fix any of the little stuff that might pop up but engine and trans coverage was defiantly a bonus.

[Chief of the 60's]

Originally Posted by ta6point6

Every manufacture has/built bad cars so factor that in. Plus buying a used car the unknown factor is how the previous owner treated vehicle before you got it. Hopefully most of the problems with vehicle have been replaced or taken care of under warranty work. So when you get the vehicle hopefully it is in good shape and the bugs have been worked out. A vehicle making 100,000 miles on any newer car should be no problem. That being said the most important thing about buying a used car is where you buy it and what kind of warranty they are willing to give you. I bought my Chevy at a Ford dealership because they gave a 2 year drive train warranty. I can fix any of the little stuff that might pop up but engine and trans coverage was defiantly a bonus.

I don't know what year you bought or how many miles but GM's powertrain warranty is 5yr./100,000mi. It just recently went to 5yr./60,000mi. So if you bought a 2-3 year old GM vehicle that Ford dealer didn't "give" you a thing.

[RocktimusPryme]

I still say your margin is likely only a few percent either way. You are better off just buying the vehicle you like the most. I personally wouldnt settle for a vehicle I didnt like because it had a 4% better chance of making it to 250k miles.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

I still say your margin is likely only a few percent either way. You are better off just buying the vehicle you like the most. I personally wouldnt settle for a vehicle I didnt like because it had a 4% better chance of making it to 250k miles.

I agree. You should drive the car you like and can afford. If you don't like cars anyway, then the reliability factor may become more important. The color of a car means allot to me. I simply won't buy a car I plan to keep if I don't like the color. Possibly comes from my father who really didn't like cars and purposely bought the ugliest car he could find when he needed a car. If the dealer would discount the car a few hundred dollars for the ugliest car on the lot, he bought it. Life is short, enjoy the car you drive if your a car person.

[necdb3]

Originally Posted by The Champ

Just how do you "label" customers to not receive surveys? How do you manipulate data that is received from the survery?

Lots of claims - no proof.

I witnessed it many times on BMW's. Look, I'm not going to argue with you about this, It is a fact that I witnessed numerous times. You can act like you know better but I'm only giving you facts. Like I said before, You don't have to believe it. What dealer or manufacturer did you work for?


Money is made from a lot of these surveys and they aren't always what you think.

[68azbird]

We had a dodge minivan in today that a woman purchased from a used car dealer. She had some problems when she bought it and they supposedly took care of it.
She recently brings it to a emissions testing facility and it fails. They directly hook into the OBD2 on newer vehicles here for emissions testing.
They had a bunch of codes stored in the system but the check engine was not on. Boss takes the instrument cluster out the vehicle and finds black tape over the check engine light display inside the cluster.
Typical used car sales dirty tricks.
Byers beware