[U47]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

Thanks b-man for all you're doing with posting these photos. This is VERY interesting.

Hey Larry how are you? What did you think of the condition of those water distribution tubes! Remember the story I told you about my 59 cat and it's 420"A" 's disintegrated brass tubes.....Twice! before we switched to 60 SD heads! I have a friend who pulled apart a very low mileage 57 347 and the tubes were perfect and stainless steel!

Don

[Bill Hanlon]

Originally Posted by b-man

I removed the oil pump, took it apart and cleaned it up. Here are a few of the differences between it and the later Melling M54DS 60 psi replacement pump.

Going back to the deep oil pan question, is the height of the removed oil pump and swinging pickup on the pump with the helical gears the same as the M54DS? I'm guessing the old pump and pickup are taller to take advantage of the deeper sump on the pan.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Bill Hanlon

Going back to the deep oil pan question, is the height of the removed oil pump and swinging pickup on the pump with the helical gears the same as the M54DS? I'm guessing the old pump and pickup are taller to take advantage of the deeper sump on the pan.

At full droop the furthest out tip of the swinging pickup can almost touch the bottom of the pan, measuring close to 7-7/8" from the base of the pump where it bolts to the block. This measurement pretty closely matches the depth of the pan. The pickup can swing upwards until the flat portion of the pickup nearest to the pump measures 6-1/2" from the pump base.

The pickup on the used Melling M54DS pump shown in the pics sits about 6-1/2 from the pump base. The pickup would probably be about 1/2" from the bottom of a later shallower pan, so we're looking at about 1-1/2" from the bottom of the '59 pan. That large amount of clearance won't do, so in order to use it I'd have to use an aftermarket dropped pickup of some sort.

The pump bodies are exactly the same height on both pumps, roughly 6-1/2" from the center of the pump bottom plate.

[gavin]

I remember a post were some one said they used the late straight gears in the early early pump body.I will see if I can find it.

[gavin]

OK pontirag said he used the gears out of a late 60 lb mellings pump and they go straight in with no mods.

[Safari Larry]

Originally Posted by U47

Hey Larry how are you? What did you think of the condition of those water distribution tubes! Remember the story I told you about my 59 cat and it's 420"A" 's disintegrated brass tubes.....Twice! before we switched to 60 SD heads! I have a friend who pulled apart a very low mileage 57 347 and the tubes were perfect and stainless steel!

Don

Yes Don, I remember that well, as I recall you had problems with them twice before switching to a '60 engine. Your's is the only post-56 tubes I've heard of that were brass. Pontiac switched from brass to stainless tubes mid year '56. The 55-56 tubes are different (round) than the 57-59 tubes. They are often very difficult or impossible to remove without destroying them.

[BruceWilkie]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

Yes Don, I remember that well, as I recall you had problems with them twice before switching to a '60 engine. Your's is the only post-56 tubes I've heard of that were brass. Pontiac switched from brass to stainless tubes mid year '56. The 55-56 tubes are different (round) than the 57-59 tubes. They are often very difficult or impossible to remove without destroying them.

When I first got my present 59 block it had 1960 heads on it and gusher tubes in them(stainless) same as the tubes that were in the 59 420A motor I had at the time. They were in excellent shape in terms of corrosion or damage. I believe the shape was so it would be very difficult(except for an idiot with a hammer) to install with coolant holes facing the wrong direction. Both motors had been sitting since 62 when the owner died. The 420A was still in the car and still had coolant in it(31k on odometer) the other a fresh performance build that by all indications was never run.(It was sitting on ground next to the car). (car was found about 30 miles north of Syracuse NY in a colder snowier region) The "built" 59 had the ports heavily taped including water crossover and no intake.

[U47]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

Yes Don, I remember that well, as I recall you had problems with them twice before switching to a '60 engine. Your's is the only post-56 tubes I've heard of that were brass. Pontiac switched from brass to stainless tubes mid year '56. The 55-56 tubes are different (round) than the 57-59 tubes. They are often very difficult or impossible to remove without destroying them.

I remember telling you that the engine for my car was one of those engines hand built in the Pontiac tool room as were all NASCAR engines. I'm wondering if that had something to do with it.

[Bill Hanlon]

Originally Posted by gavin

I remember a post were some one said they used the late straight gears in the early early pump body.I will see if I can find it.

I have put a set of gears from a M54D (1959 and newer) into a pump that was on my '57 347" (Pontiac) GMC and run it on the street for 10+ years. No hot rod, but daily driven for 70,000+ miles like this.

[b-man]

I put most of the cleaned-up parts back on the 389 so I can begin figuring out mounting it on a test stand that I'm trying to put together.

Starting to look more like a hot rod engine now with the Tri-Power intake perched on top. The thermostat housing shown here is from a 1965 Tri-Power, I also have 1964 and 1966 housings I can use depending on which way the radiator hose needs to go. I may even decide to search out a 1959 housing that has an engine lifting loop built into the casting.





I put the front cover and water pump back on temporarily so I could check out the fit of the water pump pulley I was able to acquire from fellow PY forum member Bruce Wilkie. Everything lines up just like it should.



Also acquired a 1959 distributor along with the pulley, just for the sake of having as many 1959 parts as possible on this engine. This old iron body distributor features an oiling cup, you add a few drops of motor oil to keep the upper distributor bushing lubed every 1,000 miles.



Distributor ID tag shows part # 1110943.

[b-man]

.....will be told here to show that you can use either the 90-degree or the angled spin-on filter adapter on the early '55 -'60 blocks.

The blue filter adapter is the 90-degree one used on B-body big Pontiacs and first-gen '67 -'69 F-body Firebirds. The angled filter adapter is used on all A-body GTO/Le Mans/Tempest and second-gen '70 -'81 F-body Firebirds.



Note that the 90-degree adapter has the oil sender coming straight out the side, while the angled adapter has it coming out towards the rear.



The angled adapter is shown here installed on the '59 block.



As you can see here it's a very close fit.



Same shot, but this time with the stick shift bellhousing in place. As you can see there's plenty of clearance between the filter and the bellhousing.



The only point of interference was the head of this bolt, if there is a lock washer underneath it it hits the filter. The answer is to either go without the washer or shave down the head of the bolt a little.



Here's the 90-degree adapter installed, there's tons of room between it and the engine block.





Side view of 90-degree adapter.



Side view of the angled adapter.

[b-man]

.....the test stand today.

First order of business was to liberate the engine from the engine stand. For those of you who aren't comfortable using a lifting plate, here's close to 700 pounds being supported by the four 5/16" carb studs on the 2-barrel intake.



Here's the main reason that these older blocks don't get used for many engine builds, the odd-ball '55-'60 bellhousing bolt pattern. This, along with the fact that the block doesn't mount the starter.



I attached my 1960 stick bellhousing so I can build the rear test stand mounts off of it. The '58-'60 stick bellhousings will accommodate the stronger and more modern stick transmissions.



To start with I used some 1.25" wide by .250" thick metal strap iron to locate the bellhousing approximately where I want it on the test stand.





There's plenty of clearance between the floor of the stand and the oil pan as well as the lowest hanging item, the road draft tube.



With the rear of the engine somewhat secure I can move on to the side engine mounting.

Here's why you never throw anything away made of steel that might be useful later on, a pair of camper hold downs that I almost sat at the curb for the scrappers.



After about 2 minutes with the Sawzall and I now have these, 2.50" wide by .375" thick material already bent very close to the shape I need.



They'll work out just perfect here.



The supports tuck in nicely to clear any type of exhaust that I might need to use.





After drilling a hole for a 1/2" bolt, they're now attached to the mounts and supporting the front of the engine.



I'll weld the bottoms of the support legs to the pieces of channel that were cut off from the camper hold downs, then bolt the channel to the floor of the test stand.



Now to do something about mounting the bellhousing properly, this certainly won't do as it now sits.



After some cutting and drilling using the same two pieces of material we're good now



All self-supporting and stable, even without doing any welding on the front supports. That's it for today.

[BruceWilkie]

B-man the cannister filter is another option. One of my blocks had one and the 420A longbranches cleared fine. Wish I hadnt sold the manifolds.(iirc they are in CA somewhere as are a pair of early curve top M/T valve covers.) I accidentally broke my canister filter housing. Current block I have the straight adapter from a 68 350. I'll probably just use remote filter once turbo's are ready to install.

Nice test stand your building.

[Bill Hanlon]

I have a canister filter can, bolt and adapter if anyone needs any of it. Came off of my '57 347 V8.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by Bill Hanlon

I have a canister filter can, bolt and adapter if anyone needs any of it. Came off of my '57 347 V8.

Donations gratefully accepted.

[b-man]

Today I wanted to try to get some compression numbers, just to get an idea on the general health of the engine before I tear it down any further.

I put the auto trans bell and flexplate back on it along with the starter motor so I could run the compression test.



I also installed a nice tight lightly used double-roller timing set. This way the valve action wouldn't be retarded because of a loose chain, perhaps giving me a better chance of getting some decent compression readings.



I pirated a couple of good used battery cables from my stash and hooked up the battery. I also put the 2-barrel carb back on and blocked the choke plate and throttle linkage wide-open, to better simulate a test you'd do on a complete engine.



Now I'm ready to do some testing.



Since the engine is obviously cold and the lifters aren't pumped up the readings won't tell the whole story, but here they are:

1 - 110
3 - 80
5 - 65
7 - 105

2 - 95
4 - 70
6 - 65
8 - 110

Tested again after adding a squirt of Marvel Mystery Oil to each cylinder:

1 - 120
3 - 100
5 - 100
7 - 115

2 - 80
4 - 80
6 - 70
8 - 130

So at this point I'll let it sit for a week to give the MMO a chance to soak into the rings a bit more to perhaps free them some and test again, then I'll pull the heads.

[azbirds]

Are there different bellcranks for the 4 BBL and TriPower? I'm working on a 59 Bonneville that was converted from 4BBL to TriPower and the throttle linkage is binding.

[b-man]

Originally Posted by azbirds

Are there different bellcranks for the 4 BBL and TriPower? I'm working on a 59 Bonneville that was converted from 4BBL to TriPower and the throttle linkage is binding.

I don't know enough about the '59 cars to know for sure, but I'm thinking your assumption is correct.

[tom s]

Bart,get a couple heat lamps and put them next to the engine on each side to warm it up over night.Might get better numbers if its all warmed up.Tom

[azbirds]

Talk about a difficult part to find. I guess the search is on.