[slowbird]

Some very nice parts there!

[dieselgeek]

Video I put together with data overlay from our very first pull at the event, before we tuned in another 25hp or so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kQGp-fHuFc

[johnta1]

Welcome to PY!

We can use some more very knowledgeable people here.

[dieselgeek]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Welcome to PY!

We can use some more very knowledgeable people here.

Thanks John,

For the last month or so I thought that "PontiacZone" was "THE PONTIAC SITE" - a little browsing left me awfully confused. Thankfully found this site today, whew.

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by dieselgeek

Thanks John,

For the last month or so I thought that "PontiacZone" was "THE PONTIAC SITE" - a little browsing left me awfully confused. Thankfully found this site today, whew.

x2,...... 99 out of 100 pontiackers are good folks. The Pontiac community is small and it is well documented that the few bad apples that are rejects from legitimate forums seem to be the norm there.

[johnta1]

For the last month or so I thought that "PontiacZone" was "THE PONTIAC SITE" - a little browsing left me awfully confused. Thankfully found this site today, whew.

Glad you found this site.

[David Jones]

Congrats on the top 10. Amazing accomplishment given the competition.

After living through one of these competitions now......what the heck do you have to do to win?

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by johnta1

We can use some more very knowledgeable people here.

LOL!

Just can't help yourself, can ya John? I don't care who you are, that is funny!

And Welcome to site DieselGeek. It really is a great, opinionated, but great group of guys.

[dieselgeek]

Originally Posted by David Jones

After living through one of these competitions now......what the heck do you have to do to win?

I've been doing EMC a few years. The best finish of any team I was on, was 2012. We finished in second place with an Early Hemi.

My thoughts on what it takes to win:

(1) picking the right platform.
(2) throwing out ALL "rules of thumb"
(3) using a good performance modelling software works, and get familiar with all the great racing and performance calculators out there.
(4) you need to start with a GOOD airflow/cyl head guy; then you have to convince him to throw out what he knows (peak power in narrow RPM band) and instead focus on EMC (average power, wide RPM range). Then hope he knows how to learn/adapt because this isn't similar to what he's been doing up to this point. The two guys I have experience with and trust are Nick Smithberg and Chad Speier. There are a LOT of EMC stories where guys "paid the top head porter in Pro Stock" and ended up midpack wondering what happened - your head guy has to be an integral part of the team, look at your data from testing and know what needs changes. This was my first year with Chad and he was so on-task it was ridiculous. We shouldn't have done this well with a "first year" engine. Usually it takes a few years of development to be competitive, if you break it down we were one of the top finishing "old school" engines (no VVT, no 4 valves per cyl, etc.).
(5) YOU NEED TO TEST EVERYTHING YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON. Starting with your well-ported heads, and hopefully a couple good cam choices, start testing. Focus on exhaust, then intake, as these give best rewards with least effort. Then go for the 1-5% improvements like the Tuneup, timing curve, windage, valve lash settings, yadda yadda. KEEP DETAILED RECORDS.
(6) Spend as much time testing as possible. A-B-A testing is required. Can't fall for a "looks like it worked awesome" - you have to back up the changes.
(7) Come prepared - you have to finish to win and a lot of guys don't do that.


That's all I can think of at the moment.

[johnta1]

(3) using a good performance modelling software works, and get familiar with all the great racing and performance calculators out there.

Uh oh, wait for it.



That Hemi was a great build.
You guys had a lot of trials and tribulations.

[dieselgeek]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Uh oh, wait for it.

I come from the Enthusiast realm - I couldn't imagine starting an EMC project without my favorite calculators and applications. Maybe some of these Pro builders we battle don't need them? I doubt it.

[Skip Fix]

Originally Posted by dieselgeek

I've been doing EMC a few years. The best finish of any team I was on, was 2012. We finished in second place with an Early Hemi.

My thoughts on what it takes to win:

(1) picking the right platform.
(2) throwing out ALL "rules of thumb"
(3) using a good performance modelling software works, and get familiar with all the great racing and performance calculators out there.
(4) you need to start with a GOOD airflow/cyl head guy; then you have to convince him to throw out what he knows (peak power in narrow RPM band) and instead focus on EMC (average power, wide RPM range). Then hope he knows how to learn/adapt because this isn't similar to what he's been doing up to this point. The two guys I have experience with and trust are Nick Smithberg and Chad Speier. There are a LOT of EMC stories where guys "paid the top head porter in Pro Stock" and ended up midpack wondering what happened - your head guy has to be an integral part of the team, look at your data from testing and know what needs changes. This was my first year with Chad and he was so on-task it was ridiculous. We shouldn't have done this well with a "first year" engine. Usually it takes a few years of development to be competitive, if you break it down we were one of the top finishing "old school" engines (no VVT, no 4 valves per cyl, etc.).
(5) YOU NEED TO TEST EVERYTHING YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON. Starting with your well-ported heads, and hopefully a couple good cam choices, start testing. Focus on exhaust, then intake, as these give best rewards with least effort. Then go for the 1-5% improvements like the Tuneup, timing curve, windage, valve lash settings, yadda yadda. KEEP DETAILED RECORDS.
(6) Spend as much time testing as possible. A-B-A testing is required. Can't fall for a "looks like it worked awesome" - you have to back up the changes.
(7) Come prepared - you have to finish to win and a lot of guys don't do that.


That's all I can think of at the moment.

Good job! And well said on the recommendations.

Unfortunately many of the Pontiac folks can't get past #2 and think out of the box.

[77 TRASHCAN]

Rules of thumb, also known as wive's tales....LOL

[Chad Speier]

I will admit I done a few things in the port development that goes against everything a believe in! LOL.

It was a blast and Scott is the best EFI guy, period! What he could do while making a pull as far as tuning the engine was simply mind boggling..

[Tom McQueen]

Originally Posted by dieselgeek

Thanks John,

For the last month or so I thought that "PontiacZone" was "THE PONTIAC SITE" - a little browsing left me awfully confused. Thankfully found this site today, whew.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That site is an on-line advertisement for driving/racing a chevrolet.

[65nss4spdGTO]

Originally Posted by dieselgeek

I come from the Enthusiast realm - I couldn't imagine starting an EMC project without my favorite calculators and applications. Maybe some of these Pro builders we battle don't need them? I doubt it.

You mean you can use physics, math and the latest computer technology to help forward development, who woulda thought???

Calvin Hill
Hill Performance
708-250-7420

[Vince GTO]

900HP
I really like the coils any information about the ignition system used?

Thanks Vince

[dieselgeek]

Originally Posted by Vince GTO

900HP
I really like the coils any information about the ignition system used?

Thanks Vince

mark figured out that the Ford COPs fit the engine easily, so he asked me to make them work.

Those coils do not have onboard transistors (like LS coils) so they require an Ignitor (also called Power transistor). We used a pair of DIYAutotune.com's QuadSpark 4-channel ignitors to drive them, then the Megasquirt-3 Pro controls the ignitors with 8 ignition channels. With the crank and cam sensor inputs, this allows the ECU to control all eight cylinders independently with their own timing maps. Although we did not use separate ignition timing per cylinder, we didn't have time/tools available to optimize individual cylinder timing.

So it would take a sequential ECU (with cam and crank position awareness) to drive them properly. Commercial systems that can do this are the Holley HP/Dominator (the new ones), moTec, Haltec, and a few others. None of the popular domestic systems other than Holley that I know of.

[BruceWilkie]

Thanks for ignition info... planning on MS3 pro myself... DIY's ignitors look like a good alternative to LS truck coils.... Wondering if the drivers could handle small cannister style coils like the type found on old VW's. With all the saturation time available with COP I dont think you need super high volts if you can up amps reliably.

[dieselgeek]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Thanks for ignition info... planning on MS3 pro myself... DIY's ignitors look like a good alternative to LS truck coils.... Wondering if the drivers could handle small cannister style coils like the type found on old VW's. With all the saturation time available with COP I dont think you need super high volts if you can up amps reliably.

We used the MS3Pro. If you have the option of using LS coils I would strongly recommend them over the Ford COPs, the Ford coils have reliability issues (we kept plenty of spares on hand, but never did kill one in perhaps 10 hours of runtime). LS coils on the other hand are almost impossible to kill. I've used LS coils in applications over 5hp per cubic inch (forced induction), when you up the dwell time they will fire just about anything. anyhow, I prefer any coil with an internal ignitor as they usually have overdwell and overtemp protection.