[henesian]

Anyway, the car's been running great, 76 T/A 400. I drive it to school everyday 9:30AM-1:45pm. When I tried to fire it up to leave school yesterday, I didn't hear the normal click or anything. I turned the key and there was absolutely nothing. So, I called up Dad, he got over there after some super important meetings, and we tried to get it rolling. In the end, we had to have it towed. So here's what we did

-Turn the balancer bolt to unseize the starter gear(I think it helped as we heard the starter do something lmao.)

-Use a remote starter solenoid switch

-Jump me

-Change batteries with a tested good one

-Looked at the starter, and everything checked out under the car

In the end, we had to call up AAA and have a fellow racer tow truck driver tow me out of the parking lot. Honestly, it was really embarrassing, because I'm the only person who drives an old car, and the guy with the biggest engine.

So, anywho, we got it home, and decided to try to charge the battery just for the heck of it.

So we did that, and we put the key in, and moved the collar on the steering column and the car fired up! Dad drove it around the block, and parked it, and we were still worried.

This morning, we tried to fire it up, and there was absolutely nothing, just like how there was nothing at school.


OK!

The fact that the solenoid switch didn't work, makes me want to believe that the solenoid is the problem. And the fact that we didn't hear the normal click from the solenoid.

What do you guys think?

[gtome]

I just had the exact same thing happen to mine, and the starter was sticking. Wouldnt do anything at all for me, but when I had it tested it kicked out but wouldnt turn.
When it first happened, I tried to start it and it did nothin. Took the starter out and had it tested, and it tested fine. Plunked it back in, and it worked....like 3 times. Thats when I pulled it back out and it it was kicking out but not spinning it.

[79firebird_99TA]

When you say that you moved the "collar on the steering column" and it cranked, I think neutral safety switch. Do you have an automatic or manual transmission?

[henesian]

Originally Posted by gtome

I just had the exact same thing happen to mine, and the starter was sticking. Wouldnt do anything at all for me, but when I had it tested it kicked out but wouldnt turn.
When it first happened, I tried to start it and it did nothin. Took the starter out and had it tested, and it tested fine. Plunked it back in, and it worked....like 3 times. Thats when I pulled it back out and it it was kicking out but not spinning it.

I found your thread and read it before we went back to school to try and get it running. That's where I got the balancer bolt turning idea from.

[henesian]

Originally Posted by 79firebird_99TA

When you say that you moved the "collar on the steering column" and it cranked, I think neutral safety switch. Do you have an automatic or manual transmission?

It's a TH350 auto. It can fire up in any gear because we have the neutral safety switch dealy disabled.

[PontGuy]

Another thing to check are the battery connections, especially the ground strap to the engine block. Do the lights, radio, etc. still work when it decides not to start? If they don't that usually indicates a ground problem. This is very common for old cars especially if the engine has not been rebuilt for a long time, and is caused by a gradual buildup of corrosion, oil and grime at the connection lug on the head.

If the lights and radio work fine but the solenoid won't click, then its got to be starter wiring or the starter itself. Touch a jumper directly from the battery to the solenoid- if it still doesn't try to start then its time to replace the starter.

Walt

[henesian]

Originally Posted by PontGuy

Another thing to check are the battery connections, especially the ground strap to the engine block. Do the lights, radio, etc. still work when it decides not to start? If they don't that usually indicates a ground problem. This is very common for old cars especially if the engine has not been rebuilt for a long time, and is caused by a gradual buildup of corrosion, oil and grime at the connection lug on the head.

If the lights and radio work fine but the solenoid won't click, then its got to be starter wiring or the starter itself. Touch a jumper directly from the battery to the solenoid- if it still doesn't try to start then its time to replace the starter.

Walt

That's the funny thing, the lights and radio and all the dash stuff works with the key on like normal. All the grounds are good. But, why would the car fire up after completely charging a different battery if the solenoid wouldn't work with a battery that could run the accessories?

[henesian]

UPDATE: We're going to try PontGuy's idea of touching a jumper directly from the battery to the solenoid. And if that doesn't work we're going to pull the starter and have it tested.

Thank you all for your time and help.

[ford4play]

I'm working from memory here, so if I'm wrong, please don't flame me too bad. You stated you turned the collar on the column. If your linkage from column to trans gear select lever is missing or disconnected, than if the collar moves out of its "park" or "neutral" position, starter will not engage. I know you said neutral safety switch is disconnected, but is it? The switch and the collar linkage are two different things, but work together. Without the collar linkage hooked up, you would be able to start car in any gear on the trans., so long as the collar is in "park" or "neutral". If you turn the collar to say make your reverse lights come on, and the neutral safety switch is hooked up, then no start.When you put car in reverse, do the back-up lights come on, or do you have to turn the collar to make them light? If you have to turn the collar, than I'm guessing that neutral safety switch is hooked up, and collar is not in "park" or "neutral" position. Easier to fix/check than dropping or replacing starter for a first step.

[mikeb]

The moving the collar on the steering column is the clue. There is a neutral safety switch that is connected to the mechanism that moves the collar. Either the shift linkage is out of adjustment, or the switch is failing.

[henesian]

UPDATE: So, yeah. Well, the collar is basically set in park, so the car can be started in any gear, and that the back up lights don't come on. We took the starter out and tested it, and the unit itself is good, after tightening and cleaning some connections, we put it back in, and it worked a few times, we let it cool down and let it sit in the garage for a couple hours. Went to go see the new Pandorum movie, came back and tried firing it up, and the starter jammed, causing tons of current to run through the ground on the battery, luckily we're good, and got the ground terminal off the battery before the whole car tried to burn itself down to the ground.

Dad thinks that because this happened, the starter is no longer trustworthy, and the fact that it's covered under a warranty, means it won't cost anything to replace. Also, I think we're going to try futzing with the neutral start switch, maybe resetting it to where it's normal so the car can only be started in park and neutral, or just take it out all together and run a jumper through there.

[gtome]

Thats what I did. I added the remote solinoid too..... but it didnt help my hot start problem.
Mine would jam too and smoke would roll out of the engine compartment.
Put the new starter in and it has been fine (so far). Only trouble I had was I didnt get the battery cable tight enough and when I went to start it it would click, and I would loose the connection(no lights or anything). Tightened that up, and its been good so far. I would reconnect your neutral saftey switch once you get the new starter in too.

P.S. If you got sparks and the like, be sure your power wire to the starter isnt hitting on the block.

P.S.S..... how was the movie??

[PontGuy]

Sounds like you are slowly working through the problem.

As others have said make sure you get the neutral safety switch wiring sorted out one way or the other. Either jumper it out so it is sure to always be connected or better yet fix it so that it works right.

But based on what I am hearing it sounds like the problem is that the starter is hanging up. If it doesn't disengage completely then it can cause sort of problems you are describing. I remember keeping a hammer in the car to tap the starter motor to free up the solenoid on a Firebird I had many years ago- don't really recommend that method though. At the time I just couldn't afford to replace it for a while.

Have you checked the gear tooth clearance with the starter installed? If the tooth fit to the flywheel/flexplate gear is too tight it can cause these sorts of problems. Usually some starter shims are needed to get proper clearance. I always check the fit when installing a new starter or flywheel and add/subtract shims if needed.

Walt

[gtome]

Agreed!! Pain in the butt, but I ended up with 5 shims with mine. In and out lots-a-times til it was right.

[henesian]

Originally Posted by PontGuy

Sounds like you are slowly working through the problem.

As others have said make sure you get the neutral safety switch wiring sorted out one way or the other. Either jumper it out so it is sure to always be connected or better yet fix it so that it works right.

But based on what I am hearing it sounds like the problem is that the starter is hanging up. If it doesn't disengage completely then it can cause sort of problems you are describing. I remember keeping a hammer in the car to tap the starter motor to free up the solenoid on a Firebird I had many years ago- don't really recommend that method though. At the time I just couldn't afford to replace it for a while.

Have you checked the gear tooth clearance with the starter installed? If the tooth fit to the flywheel/flexplate gear is too tight it can cause these sorts of problems. Usually some starter shims are needed to get proper clearance. I always check the fit when installing a new starter or flywheel and add/subtract shims if needed.

Walt

Yeah. I think since, new neutral start safety switches cost about $17 at Napa Auto Parts, we're going to get a new one, or fix the old one. No we didn't, but we put it in with the same amount of shims it had before. Maybe that was a mistake, maybe it wasn't. Nice idea with the hammer. I usually keep a 7/16" wrench in the center console, just incase I have to open the hood super fast and get the black battery terminal off.

[henesian]

Originally Posted by gtome

Thats what I did. I added the remote solinoid too..... but it didnt help my hot start problem.
Mine would jam too and smoke would roll out of the engine compartment.
Put the new starter in and it has been fine (so far). Only trouble I had was I didnt get the battery cable tight enough and when I went to start it it would click, and I would loose the connection(no lights or anything). Tightened that up, and its been good so far. I would reconnect your neutral saftey switch once you get the new starter in too.

P.S. If you got sparks and the like, be sure your power wire to the starter isnt hitting on the block.

P.S.S..... how was the movie??

That's good to hear that a new starter fixes most of the problems. Yeah, we're really key and good on making sure connections are super tight and things are far away from the block. I think that when we cleaned all the connections up and tightened up all the nuts on the starter solenoid that we were able to get it just enough out of the short zone, and into the working properly zone that it was able to work once, then got jammed.

P.S. The movie was good, had the standard scary movie camera work so it's hard to see what's actually going on in fight scenes. Pretty interesting story, not too far-fetched, could actually happen. If you liked the Aliens movie, you'll like this.

[henesian]

UPDATE: tested the starter lead and 9/10 times when you turn the key to start the car, the voltmeter would read 12.36 volts, and only one or 2 times it would read 0 volts. Also, when nothing is on and the key is out, and the door is closed, it would fluxuate between 0.01-0.05 volts.