[Cannonball]

Hello,

Was wondering if someone could post any block date codes that they know of for a 70 Firebird/Trans Am Ram Air III out of Norwood with an April or May build date. Just trying to get a sense for the range of blocks that could potentially be used on a car that has a fourth week of April build date. Seeing quite a wide range of block date codes. Anything from October of 69 for a car with a later date on the invoice than mine, as well as a later production sequence # (by about 2000) to March 1970 from a car that was ahead of mine by 6k units. I guess either one would be fine according to the sequence and build dates, especially given situations where blocks could be sitting somewhere in inventory or misplaced, curious to see what folks out there have in their TAs.

Thanks.

[Norwood]

My original block is dated 12/69 on a July built car.

[weranc55]

Originally Posted by Norwood

My original block is dated 12/69 on a July built car.

Wow that's a big gap. They probable had a special high horse motor in the back waiting for your car.

[Norwood]

Originally Posted by weranc55

Wow that's a big gap. They probable had a special high horse motor in the back waiting for your car.

They were using it to hold the bathroom door open for 6 months

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by Norwood

They were using it to hold the bathroom door open for 6 months

Exactly what I thought

[jhnichols2]

I haven't cleaned the TA up enough yet to get the Tanny / axle dates yet. A project that has been sitting for a while until my 67 GTO gets done.

[72projectbird]

My 3rd week of March 70 has its original engine, which was built in January of 70.

[SD455DJ]

My '70 Formula is a 04D Norwood build car. Here are the date codes on it:

Block - D060
Heads - D100/D140
Int. Man. - C100
Exhaust Man. - D080/D080
Carb - 0570
Dist - 9G3
Alt - 0B23

I hope this helps! It looks like dates are all over the place!

Dennis

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by SD455DJ

My '70 Formula is a 04D Norwood build car. Here are the date codes on it:

Block - D060
Heads - D100/D140
Int. Man. - C100
Exhaust Man. - D080/D080
Carb - 0570
Dist - 9G3
Alt - 0B23

I hope this helps! It looks like dates are all over the place!

Dennis

Here's the EUN of the above engine. It also has a double strike of the VIN stamp.

Dennis

[poncho-mike]

I had a weird combination of dates on a low mileage 70 T/A automatic I parted out. This was a low mileage but rusty one owner 70 T/A I bought out of WV. I don't remember the exact dates, but the interesting part of this is the block had no VIN number stamped into it. I believe the body shell cowl tag was dated a couple of months before the motor, with the motor cast dates matching up what you would expect for a July shipped car.

This is the second engine I came across with no VIN stamp or SR block stamp at all. The first was a 1971 455HO YE block. If my memory is correct, someone on the board said that if there is a problem with the engine, the car gets pulled off to the side and a replacement engine gets installed. When that happens, the people replacing the motor usually didn't stamp the VIN into the block because the rework was done off the main assembly line.

[keith k]

The original WS block in my 04D Norwood Formula is dated D 10 0.

[johnta1]

Keith, Norwood plant?

[DANTIP]

I have a RAIII (Norwood car) J099 cast 979914 block with an EUN of 0402790 for a car shipped on 05-08-70.

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by keith k

The original WS block in my 04D Norwood Formula is dated D 10 0.

Wow very close good information

[Norwood]

I’m always interested in hearing what some of the experts have to say on this huge gap between build date 7c and block date 12/11/69.

[Kenth]

I have found that sometimes an engine in production line did not pass inspection and was passed on to the "backroom" for repairs and when finished back on the line. E.U.N and V.I.N was stamped at installation in the vehicle.

[keith k]

Originally Posted by Norwood

I’m always interested in hearing what some of the experts have to say on this huge gap between build date 7c and block date 12/11/69.

Maybe the Engine Plant used a First In Last Out inventory system....?

The closest other RAIII EUN I have to yours (~140 before) in my notes is in an 03D Van Nuys TA.

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by Norwood

I’m always interested in hearing what some of the experts have to say on this huge gap between build date 7c and block date 12/11/69.

It does happen And here’s proof that the so-called experts are wrong

[John V.]

Originally Posted by 72projectbird

My 3rd week of March 70 has its original engine, which was built in January of 70.

Not to pick on 72projectbird's response but to use it to illustrate an important (in my view) point.

Engine blocks have cast date tags. These tags represent the date that the block was cast.

It does NOT represent when the Engine was assembled in Pontiac's one and only engine plant located at the Pontiac, Mich home plant. One should NOT use the block cast date to indicate when an engine was "built".

The EUN can be used to establish the approximate date that the engine was assembled.

Perhaps it can be done more easily but I have spent years collecting '64 engine data (when partial VINs were not yet added to the block at final assembly as a theft deterrent and the year Pontiac quit stamping the full VIN as they had for some years through the '63 Model Year). From the data I can generally figure out the expected cast date and EUN based on the Time Built code on the Data Plate. I've been able to establish a decent correlation between EUN, block cast date, and Time Built code for '64 Pontiacs. And there are always anomalies that fall outside the expected ranges. Only thing certain, the block used in the original engine was cast before the car shipped.

What I have noticed over the years, these general correlations seemed to hold up pretty well throughout the '60s.

But starting with the 1970 Model Year, the correlations have seemed to be far less predictable.

I don't know if I've ever discussed Norwood's '70 engine. My knee-jerk reaction, I'd be curious to know if his EUN shows an engine assembled many months before his July TA was final assembled or if the EUN shows a late assembled engine assembly that happened to make use of a much earlier cast block.

I have encountered rare examples of both scenarios from the mid '60s. Neither scenario would surprise me and perhaps both scenarios were more commonplace beginning in '70.

The stamping of the partial VIN on the block adds another data point for '68 up engine assemblies which can be helpful in detecting restamps and other mods that attempt to disguise a NOM as original.

I wrote the above but forgot to post it yesterday. And now I see Norwood has posted his EUN.

Without benefit of significant data, it looks to me that his EUN was assembled around early Feb. If this was a '64 engine assembly, it would be unusual (but far from impossible) for the block to have been cast 2 months before it was assembled into a complete engine assembly. And also unusual for the completed engine assembly to have sat in Final Plant inventory after arriving at the Assembly Plant for some 5 months before being installed into a car build.

The latter, IMO, did occur more often at the end of Model Year production precisely because the Plant tended to operate somewhat on a First In, Last Out inventory control. That is, engine assemblies arrived in "bulk" and were placed into some form of inventory. As they were being used up in production, the next batch of engine assemblies arrived, burying whatever inventory remained.

At Model Year build out, inventories of everything (in particular, components that would not be carried over to the new Model Year) would be drawn down.

At that point (typically July being the end of MY production), engine assemblies that had long been buried at the back of the storage location collecting dust got uncovered and pulled for a build.

All speculation, but that would be my explanation for how this Feb assembled engine assembly became original to a 7C build at Norwood.

A similar explanation could be used for why a mid Dec '69 cast block wasn't made part of an engine assembly until Feb '70 based on how block castings may have been stored at Pontiac, Mich either prior to machining or engine assembly after machining.

As I mentioned, such disparities were never unknown but they do seem to have become more common after the '69 MY just by anecdotal evidence that I've come across thru the years.

[johnta1]

Thanks for your post John.



Here's a link to my EUN Search page
Put 1970 into the Year input then hit submit.

Would Pontiac have sent Norwood and Van Nuys engine assemblies prior to the Feb release of the Firebird? Would they have the EUN's on them and when is VIN stamped? Just before going to the body line?

The RA III and RA IV seem to be scattered more than the plain jane engines and the other vehicles like A-body, G-body, and B-body are a little bit organized.